# A Concordist Rossian View

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Theology\
**Created:** [December 30, 2018, 4:49am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694 "2018-12-30T04:49:34Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 5:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/21 "2018-12-31T05:22:25Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Why is your picture a mandarin duck? Ducks are _my_ thing.

That’s not a particularly short story, but if you might have noticed in my abbreviated bio on my intro. page, ([Introducing Dale Cutler - #3 by AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-dale-cutler/3696/3)), I am confident of God’s personal interventionist activity into my life. (I keep a log, a ‘field researcher’s notebook’, of empirical evidence of one of his most commom M.O.s.) So you will have to bear with me and try and project into my mindset. That will be difficult for any nontheist, since it is completely foreign to their confirmation bias (we all have confirmation biases, but not all biases are correct 🙂).

Trying to make a long story shorter, not only does God providentially direct my paths and provide my needs, but he also gives me gifts of amazing timing and placing for my enjoyment, as a loving father would give surprise gifts to a beloved child (and I do call him ‘Father’). More development on that is in order, but the mandarin duck is exemplary of one of those.

So the shortened version is that I saw a solitary male mandarin duck in the wild on a gray and chilly day in the middle of November of '04, swimming in the weir pool of the disused Werdinsel mill on the Limmat River in Zürich, Switzerland… Just(?!) the timing of it and me being then and where (and the remarkable nature of the why and when could be expounded upon further.) That duck did knock my eyes out, so to speak! 🙂

It’s interesting that one has been in the national news very recently, seen in Central Park, NYC. It was kind of a big deal.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/22 "2018-12-31T14:25:18Z")

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Interesting story. Reminds me of Francis Collins becoming a Christian after seeing a frozen waterfall. Isn’t it a bit arrogant to think that God personally arranges the world so as to create signs for you? What sign do you think is intended by (for?) all the starving children in Yemen?

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/23 "2018-12-31T14:45:43Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> (I keep a log, a ‘field researcher’s notebook’, of empirical evidence of one of his most commom M.O.s.)

Please share this “field researcher’s notebook” with us. I am sure we can come up with entirely natural explanations for all of your empirical evidences.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/24 "2018-12-31T14:48:14Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> It’s interesting that one has been in the national news very recently, seen in Central Park, NYC. It was kind of a big deal.

Really? do tell.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/25 "2018-12-31T14:56:14Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Please share this “field researcher’s notebook” with us. I am sure we can come up with entirely natural explanations for all of your empirical evidences.

Did Dale Cutler say that there were no natural explanations for what he described? No. Moreover, he likened his experiences to a beloved child receiving gifts from a loving father. Do all gifts from fathers to their children require _non-natural explanations_? Obviously not.

If a loving God truly provides good gifts for his children, that doesn’t necessarily require a circumvention of natural processes. (That is especially obvious to me because I’m a Molinist.)

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/26 "2018-12-31T15:01:51Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> m a loving father. Do all gifts from fathers to their children require _non-natural explanations_ ? Obviously not.

No, they don’t. They are physical gifts given with the human emotions of love and affection which are also physical firing of synaptic networks in the father’s brain. The father is a real person with real physical traits like evolved human feelings and emotions.

There were no “gifts from God” Humans over the past 2 million years have created this world that you live in step by step. As we end 2018, we should thank the billions of humans that came before us for building a world that is pretty comfortable and enjoyable for most of us (for a short time of our lives).

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/27 "2018-12-31T15:04:46Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> Do all gifts from fathers to their children require _non-natural explanations_ ? Obviously not.

> [@Patrick](#):
>
> They are physical gifts given with the human emotions of love and affection which are also physical firing of synaptic networks in the father’s brain.

You lost me on that one. Are you saying that human emotions like love and affection and the underlying synaptic networks of a brain are _non-natural_? I would not have expected you to embrace supernatural explanations.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/28 "2018-12-31T15:08:26Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> You lost me on that one. Are you saying that human emotions like love and affection and the underlying synaptic networks of a brain are _non-natural_ ? I would not have expected you to embrace supernatural explanations.

Sorry, I fixed my comments. No supernatural explanations need to explain anything that happens in the real world.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/29 "2018-12-31T15:13:33Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> There were no “gifts from God” Humans over the past 2 million years have created this world that you live in step by step. As we end 2018, we should thank the billions of humans that came before us for building a world that is pretty comfortable and enjoyable for most of us (for a short time of our lives).

I don’t think any humans created mandarin ducks. Moreover, even though @DaleCutler has not shared the log entries in his book of blessings from God [That’s my description which I think would be appropriate.] I seriously doubt that all of those entries are attributable to things created by people. Yet, even if some of them involve people, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t gifts from God.

I don’t have such a log book but I think I understand what Dale is saying.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/30 "2018-12-31T15:19:21Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> I don’t think any humans created mandarin ducks.

But we learned to capture and eat ducks. And then, in some parts of the world to domesticate ducks and create ducks that are our food and pets.

My point is that human imagination and creativity is purely natural and evolved. It is what makes us human. We can imagine all sorts of things and then got on to making it happen. No God is or was necessary in human achievement. And no God is necessary for any of us to live happy, comfortable, meaningful and purposeful lives.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/31 "2018-12-31T15:21:33Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> The father is a real person with real physical traits like evolved human feelings and emotions.

The Bible says (and therefore most Christians believe) that humans are made in the Image of God, and that that explains why God’s attribute of expressing and sharing love is also found within humans. It sounds like you may be saying that love and affection _only exist_ as products of synaptic networks in a material brain. (Am I correctly understanding your statement?)

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/32 "2018-12-31T15:21:56Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> Moreover, even though @DaleCutler has not shared the log entries in his book of blessings from God [That’s my description which I think would be appropriate.] I seriously doubt that all of those entries are attributable to things created by people. Yet, even if some of them involve people, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t gifts from God.

Dale has previous shown me a few entries, and that is a fair description. They are part of Dale’s personal journey, not mine or anyone else.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/33 "2018-12-31T15:24:16Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> It sounds like you may be saying that love and affection _only exist_ as products of synaptic networks in a material brain. (Am I correctly understanding your statement?)

Yes, love and affection only exist in the brain’s of the people experiencing those feeling. Once the person moves on to other feeling and emotion (or dies) those synaptic networks cease to exist.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/34 "2018-12-31T15:28:50Z")

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> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> Dale has previous shown me a few entries, and that is a fair description. They are part of Dale’s personal journey, not mine or anyone else.

I really don’t want to invade Dale’s personal space. He seems like a great guy with his own purpose and meaning to his live. I wish him well and a long happy life. Once I get to know him, I am sure that I will feel a strong emphatic connection with him through the human made communication paths here at PS.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/35 "2018-12-31T15:48:35Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> I don’t think any humans created mandarin ducks.

Do you think that God created mandarin ducks? Do you think he created them for Dale’s entertainment?

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/36 "2018-12-31T15:52:01Z")

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I think God created the universe and everything in it when he created what we call physics and chemistry.

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Do you think he created them for Dale’s entertainment?

I think God created life on earth for many reasons. I see no reason why Dale’s “entertainment” could not be among those reasons.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/37 "2018-12-31T16:04:27Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> I see no reason why Dale’s “entertainment” could not be among those reasons.

The arrogant egotism of such a belief leaves me speechless. Well, nearly.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/38 "2018-12-31T16:35:23Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Well, nearly.

Well, hardly. 🙂 I sure engendered a lot of protestations!

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/39 "2018-12-31T16:42:25Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Genesis says nothing about an opaque atmosphere; it’s a kludge to explain why the sun, etc., are made after the earth.

Job does say something about an opaque atmosphere, and it’s entirely consistent with Genesis 1:2.

It has already been explained (look at the chart) that the whole universe was created in verse 1. The sun, etc., were _not_ made after the earth.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-concordist-rossian-view/3694/40 "2018-12-31T16:52:09Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> …in Ross’s scenario, the moon’s formation supposedly happens before the earth is formed, nor does any theory of the moon’s formation have anything to do with an opaque atmosphere.

I’m not sure, but I think he is open to the Theia scenario. _That_ could certainly involve an opaque atmosphere, as could the (I don’t remember what it is called) simultaneous generation of the earth and the moon from a single imbalanced accreted mass (that’s probably not well said, either). I never got the idea that Ross suggests that the moon was formed _before_ the earth. Maybe you’re thinking of Theia?

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