# A Spirited and Eclectic Discussion on Evolution and the Bible

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [October 3, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028 "2020-10-03T01:26:35Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Mark10.45](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mark10.45/32/8930_2.png) [@Mark10.45](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark10.45)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/21 "2020-10-03T15:56:40Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> 1 Corinthians 4:6
> 
> Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

This passage has nothing to do with science…Paul is preaching to the church at Corinth not to look to him or other apostles more highly than Jesus, which is the thing that is written. He is telling them to be “fools for Christ” and not develop their own theologies, calling for the church to be pure in what is written about Jesus, not to ignore science.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/22 "2020-10-03T15:57:24Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> God may not tell us why but there may be good enough indication that the very idea of evolution is repugnant to him, meaning that he would have never broken his own laws he later enacted regarding cross-breeding when he first created animal “kinds”.
> 
> [jewishvirtuallibrary.org](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mixed-species)
> 
> **MIXED SPECIES** (Heb. כִּלְאַיִם; _kilayim_ ), prohibition mentioned twice in the Bible. Leviticus 19:19 states: “Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind;

This appears to be an injunction for how to do your farming and breed your livestock, not about finding what occurs in nature repugnant.

Here it is YOU who is going beyond what is written.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> (…) thou shalt not sow thy field with two kinds of seed

One has to wonder why God insists on such a rule. Just what is it about growing two or more crops together that God doesn’t want? Presumably God has some reason for disapproving of a field with more than one type of plant.

Oddly enough, scientist have found that growing a diversity of plants on a field is actually beneficial to the field ecosystem, including both the plants themselves and pollinating insects.  
Somehow God wants crops to be _less_ resistant to pests, pollution, and variations in climate conditions?

Okay, so that’s what God wants. Of course, this still has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is a process that _results **in** _ diversity(like having multiple children that inherit different characteristics, some taller some shorter, some with more freckles), it does not require mixing different species, or whatever you mean by “kinds” together.

And whatever God may think of how human beings are supposed to run their farms can’t just be assumed to indicate what God thinks of how nature is suposed to proceed if left to itself.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> ; neither shall there come upon thee a garment of two kinds of stuff mingled together.”

Nothing to do with evolution, animal domestication, animal husbandry, or agriculture.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> Deuteronomy 22:9–11 states: “Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with two kinds of seed; lest the fulness of the seed which thou hast sown be forfeited together with the increase of the vineyard.

Rules for farming again, nothing to do with finding biological evolution repugnant.

You’re going beyond the written word.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

One has to wonder why(maybe they’re scared of each other and get difficult to control, maybe God doesn’t like people inadvertently comparing the plowing performance of oxes and asses), but… okay. Don’t simultaneously use an ox and an ass to plow your field. I can live with that.

Still nothing to do with evolution.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> Thou shalt not wear a mingled stuff, wool and linen together.”

So does this apply _only_ to wool and linen, or other types of fabrics too?

Nothing to do with evolution. No organism ever evolved by someone wearing clothes from two or more fabrics.

And God’s views on human clothing does not indicate what God thinks about the process by which species diversify in nature.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> From these two passages the sages deduced six types of mixing of species which are forbidden: the mixing of seeds

No, nothing about you not being allowed to “mix seeds”. You just aren’t allowed to grow them on the same field.

And of course, evolution isn’t required or thought to have involved “mixing seeds” to result in more diversity.

You’re going beyond the written word.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> ; the grafting of different species of trees and vegetables;

Nothing about grafting is mentioned. You’re going beyond the written word.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> the mixing of seed in a vineyard;

Yeah you’re not supposed to grow two kinds of seed in your vineyard (because it apparently is thought to cause you to forfeit the yield, one has to wonder why, but okay). So what? What does that have to do with evolution.

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> the hybridization of domestic and wild animals;

So God doesn’t want farmers to allow breeding domesticated with wild animals. Okay, what does that have to do with God’s views on the process by which diversity arises?

> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> plowing or driving with domestic or non-domestic animals of different species; and the mixing of wool and linen (\*sha’atnez).

Okay, what does that have to do with God’s views on the process by which diversity arises?

Please try to not “go beyond the written word”.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![r\_speir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@r\_speir](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/r_speir)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/23 "2020-10-03T15:59:51Z")

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> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> God broke all of His laws when He sent Jesus

This doesn’t make sense because the timing is completely off. Creation and your supposed “evolution that God used to create with” would have been accomplished at the beginning. Jesus would have arrived millennia later. How does the subsequent overthrow the antecedent?

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**Author:** ![ho\_idiotes](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ho_idiotes/32/9233_2.png) [@ho\_idiotes](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/ho_idiotes)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/24 "2020-10-03T16:12:43Z")

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Just checking, is this thread still about this topic?

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/25 "2020-10-03T16:12:48Z")

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> [@3flames](#):
>
> Evolution, however, is an idea that immediately violates biblical precepts because it implicates that scripture is incomplete and thereby false.

Perhaps surprisingly I don’t agree with that. I don’t think it is implied that the Bible is false simply because there are things it doesn’t say. There are many ways in which real events or processes are depicted in the Bible, at least in a superficial form, that really do occur in the world, and I don’t think the Bible is false just because it doesn’t flesh out every little detail whenever it gives such a cursory depiction.

If the Bible says it rains from clouds, I’m not going to say it’s false just because the Bible doesn’t describe the process by which water vapor condenses on airborne aerosols until such a time as their weight overcomes air currents and starts falling.

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**Author:** ![3flames](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/3flames/32/9455_2.png) [@3flames](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/3flames)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/26 "2020-10-03T16:13:55Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> How do we tell when something “goes beyond” what is written?

I would think this would be a discussion for a whole new thread, and it would be a good one. Let’s say I’m following a recipe (probably for pizza since we seem to like to talk about pizza today! 🙂 )- I first read over the recipe and instructions, gather what’s needed, and if I _ **stay within what’s written** _ we’ll have a pizza that comes out right. If I go _beyond_ what’s written, I may have something close to pizza, but not at all what was intended or should have been. Same with scripture. And though your an atheist by title, those of us who are not should understand the importance of this thought.

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**Author:** ![r\_speir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@r\_speir](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/r_speir)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/27 "2020-10-03T16:14:07Z")

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> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> Synthetic chemistry, electricity, medical imaging, jet propulsion and space travel all go beyond biblical precepts. Are they all unbiblical? Should we go back to 1 AD and live like Jesus to be biblical? And pizza certainly goes beyond biblical teaching…leavened bread, pepperoni contains pig parts, cheese was around, and awesome, but not part of the bible…and lets not forget the “magic” of garlic and tomato sauce…

This argument also fails because Paul was giving instructions to Gentiles who ate everything, not Jews. While their mouths were stuffed with pigs in a blanket and pizza, Paul was telling them “Not to go beyond what is written” and expected them to follow the directive.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/28 "2020-10-03T16:32:12Z")

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> [@3flames](#):
>
> Let’s say I’m following a recipe (probably for pizza since we seem to like to talk about pizza today! 🙂 )- I first read over the recipe and instructions, gather what’s needed, and if I _ **stay within what’s written** _ we’ll have a pizza that comes out right.

You’ll have a pizza that corresponds to the recipe, but of course there are relatively few such recipes in the Bible. Though there are a few. Case in point is @r_speir’s invoking of what appears to me nothing more than a “recipe” for animal husbandry, dress code, and farming. He goes well beyond what it actually says and takes it all to imply that God finds biological evolution repugnant.

Wear one one kind of fabric, don’t plow with both oxes and asses simultaneously, and keep one type of plant on a fieldor vineyard =/= God finds slow, gradual, transgenerational, polulation-level biological change and diversification repugnant.

But anyway, this “recipe” take may be fine as an analogy that is intended to convey the general principle, but it just becomes a lot more dubious when we come to Biblical passages that don’t take such simplistic recipe-like forms. Particularly when we get to descriptions that use words that have many plausibly synonyms, or are described in different and non-identical words in different places.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![r\_speir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@r\_speir](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/r_speir)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/29 "2020-10-03T16:35:09Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> This appears to be an injunction for how to do your farming and breed your livestock, not about finding what occurs in nature repugnant.

No, you are an atheist remember, so you will naturally not compare the spiritual to the spiritual when interpreting texts. There is specific language here about prohibitions to interbreeding of animals and not just farming.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/30 "2020-10-03T16:43:15Z")

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> [@ho\_idiotes](#):
>
> Just checking, is this thread still about this topic?

Of course not. That would have been too reasonable.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/31 "2020-10-03T16:43:27Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> There is specific language here about prohibitions to interbreeding of animals and not just farming.

No there isn’t. It says “Ye shall, Thou shalt not”. That’s a command for what you, the reader, is supposed to do or not do. That’s the words that are there. Nowhere does God say anything about what God thinks wild plants or animals are allowed to do by themselves.

You’re going beyond what is written.

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**Author:** ![r\_speir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@r\_speir](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/r_speir)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/32 "2020-10-03T17:56:47Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Nowhere does God say anything about what God thinks wild plants or animals are allowed to do by themselves.

He doesn’t have to mention elsewhere. The fact that God did not want interbreeding “on the farm” says he would not have wanted it in his Creation.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/33 "2020-10-03T18:20:51Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> The fact that God did not want interbreeding “on the farm” says he would not have wanted it in his Creation.

What makes you think that? It doesn’t say that, you’re going beyond what is written.

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**Author:** ![Mark10.45](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mark10.45/32/8930_2.png) [@Mark10.45](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark10.45)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/34 "2020-10-03T18:20:59Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> Jesus would have arrived millennia later.

John 1:1-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

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**Author:** ![RonSewell](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ronsewell/32/6194_2.png) [@RonSewell](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/RonSewell)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/35 "2020-10-03T18:58:55Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> God may not tell us why but there may be good enough indication that the very idea of evolution is repugnant to him, meaning that he would have never broken his own laws he later enacted regarding cross-breeding when he first created animal “kinds”.

That seems incongruous with Jeanson’s mixing of the species together in the DNA of hyper evolutionary “kinds”, does it not?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/36 "2020-10-03T19:00:01Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> the very idea of evolution is repugnant to him, meaning that he would have never broken his own laws he later enacted regarding cross-breeding when he first created animal “kinds”.

For the record, evolution does not entail cross-breeding between “kinds.”

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/37 "2020-10-03T19:22:28Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> For the record, evolution does not entail cross-breeding between “kinds.”

Evolution doesn’t entail “kinds” at all. Whether there’s cross-breeding between kinds depends on what a kind is, but there’s certainly plenty of cross-breeding between species, sometimes quite distantly related one, and it’s been from time to time important in producing new species.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mark10.45](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mark10.45/32/8930_2.png) [@Mark10.45](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark10.45)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/38 "2020-10-03T19:23:57Z")

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> [@Todd Wood: A Call for Being Reasonable](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/todd-wood-a-call-for-being-reasonable/11986/91):
>
> > [@Todd Wood: A Call for Being Reasonable](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/todd-wood-a-call-for-being-reasonable/11986/85):
> >
> > Just checking, is this thread still about this topic?
> 
> Of course not. That would have been too reasonable.

> [@3flames](#):
>
> Evolution, however, is an idea that immediately violates biblical precepts because it implicates that scripture is incomplete and thereby false.

In the spirit of the thread, I accept that you have a different opinion, and I am OK with you believing what you believe.

As a Christian, I find that there is no scriptural basis for the claim that the concept of evolution violates any biblical precept. The gospel of John clearly states that the bible is incomplete, yet I think we would both agree, it is still infallible. To say that because an idea does not appear in the pages of the bible makes it false is not logical.

John 21:25 - 25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

Revelation 22:18-19 is about the prophecy of the book of revelation being complete, not that the bible is finished, I have noticed many people get that passage as meaning the bible is complete…there is no scripture that says that the bible is a finished work and therefore anything outside of scripture is false. The references to not straying from scripture are in reference to the biblical concepts presented, not a testament to the completeness of the bible.

Revelation 22:18-19 - 18 [[a](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+22%3A18-19&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31099a)]For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, [[b](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+22%3A18-19&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31099b)]God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God[[c](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+22%3A18-19&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31100c)] shall take away his part from the [[d](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation+22%3A18-19&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-31100d)]Book of Life, from the holy city, and _from_ the things which are written in this book.

> [@3flames](#):
>
> Also -“it’s not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out of his mouth” Mt. 15:11 That is a biblical precept.

Here is the rest of Matthew 15, which is about the condition of a persons heart, and about propensity to sin in inward thought life, not about whether or not you believe evolution to be true.

Matthew 15:16-19 - 16 So Jesus said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.

It would be false witness to deny the scientific evidence behind evolution, and not blasphemy to support it. I affirm that God created the universe. I affirm that evolutionary science provides reasonable explanations of how God created the universe. I can do both without blaspheming.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![r\_speir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@r\_speir](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/r_speir)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/39 "2020-10-03T20:39:21Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> evolution does not entail cross-breeding between “kinds.”

I think that is common knowledge, but that wasn’t the argument. The argument said that if cross-breeding was prohibited by God in the Mosaic law, it reveals a God who wanted separation of animals at the beginning at Creation and a God who wanted that separation to continue.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-spirited-and-eclectic-discussion-on-evolution-and-the-bible/12028/40 "2020-10-03T20:39:51Z")

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And that is exactly what we see in evolution… 🙂

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