# About Thomas Nagel

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Philosophy\
**Created:** [January 22, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760 "2023-01-22T00:36:02Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 13\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![riversea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@riversea](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/riversea)\
**Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/21 "2023-01-27T20:18:01Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> On the day my daughter’s high school philosophy class was to discuss this paper, all the students showed up in Batman costumes.

@Faizal_Ali  
Wow! Fantastic! I can envision all of the students dressed like Batman. I’m awed by their connection! Your daughter is really lucky to have a teacher that is passionate about teaching as well as a warm and welcoming environment. What memories they’ll have. It’s pleasing to hear that they appreciate learning.

 ![what is it like to be a bat](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/9/99b4f06c62624b6e8347d69355ebf53355e54a10.jpeg)

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/22 "2023-01-27T21:52:09Z")

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TBH, I’m not sure how fond their memories are of their high school. But I was impressed and pleased that they were reading primary sources in their philosophy class (Never mind having a philosophy class in the first place.)

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**Author:** ![OneGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e0b2c6/32.png) [@OneGod](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/OneGod)\
**Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/23 "2023-01-27T22:46:03Z")

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Agree rm124 is not dominant. Given the 3500 years of intermarriage that is expected. That would also explain mirazi having common genes with Ashkenazi. I understand though that Ashkenazi and shepardic were the two ancient groups. The question is how does the rm124 found in india dominantly enter the Ashkenazi pool. My hypothesis is that this comes from exodus from india.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/24 "2023-01-27T23:11:54Z")

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> [@OneGod](#):
>
> Agree rm124 is not dominant. Given the 3500 years of intermarriage that is expected.

A better explanation, given that M124 is less rare among Mizrahi than Ashkenazi, and that Mizrahi inhabited [areas with heightened M124](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#West_Asia), is that the Mizrahi **gained** the gene, after splitting from the Ashkenazi, via intermarriage in West Asia. This explanation is supported by the fact that M124 is considerably more common among the (non-Ashkenazi) general Jewish population than among the priesthood (“Cohanim”) – the latter being less likely to intermarry:

 ![aaaa](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/3/309c0d730387e86ca65c41e512925a4929d14517.jpeg)

> The distribution of haplogroup frequencies for all haplogroups present in Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi Israelites (_top_) and Cohanim (_bottom_) at a frequency \>5%. The following haplogroups are not shown: C-M216, E-M96, E-P2, E-M81, F-P14, I-M170, I-P37.2, I-M223, I-M253, J-M304, L-M20, N-M231, Q-M242, R-M173 [[1]](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/)

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> The question is how does the rm124 found in india dominantly enter the Ashkenazi pool.

Given that we have **no evidence** that M124 “dominantly enter[ed] the Ashkenazi pool” _in the first place_, this would seem to be an absurd question.

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> My hypothesis is that this comes from exodus from india.

Do you have **any evidence** for this hypothesis?

Addendum:

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> I understand though that Ashkenazi and shepardic were the two ancient groups.

They are only “ancient” to the extent that they both date back to the [Jewish diaspora](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora), and Ashkenazi and [Sephardi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews) are not the only groups – [Mizrahi Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews) are a separate group:

 ![aaaa](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/0/00fa7b090ea52ddfe1e90e0850195f9df186d403.jpeg)

[[Source]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions)

It is likely in fact that Mizrahi, as they would likely include some descendants of the [Assyrian exile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_exile) and the [Babylonian captivity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity), are the older population (giving more time for local admixture).

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**Author:** ![riversea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@riversea](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/riversea)\
**Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 1:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/25 "2023-01-28T13:37:53Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> TBH, I’m not sure how fond their memories are of their high school. But I was impressed and pleased that they were reading primary sources in their philosophy class (Never mind having a philosophy class in the first place.)

@Faizal_Ali

- Can you explain what you mean by “never mind having a philosophy class”? I’m confused by your “never mind” after claiming to be pleased; can you help me understand?

- How were Thomas Nagel’s theories included into the high school curriculum?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/26 "2023-01-28T14:55:23Z")

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> [@riversea](#):
>
> Can you explain what you mean by “never mind having a philosophy class”? I’m confused by your “never mind” after claiming to be pleased; can you help me understand?

I mean that I was surprised enough by the very fact they offered a philosophy class, never mind one in which they read primary sources rather than going thru “Sophie’s World” or some other book that talks _about_ what the primary sources say. But this was a school that also taught Latin and Ancient Greek, that kind of place. Like I say, I think we parents were more happy with the choice than our kids were…

> [@riversea](#):
>
> How were Thomas Nagel’s theories included into the high school curriculum?

I don’t really know in detail. But the “bat” paper is something of a modern classic, I believe, so it is not surprising that they covered it.

BTW, if you are interested in Philosophy of Mind, I highly recommend this book. It compiles a number of classic writings on the subject (including Nagel) along with commentary from Daniel Dennett and Douglas Hofstadter.

[The Mind’s I: Fantasies And Reflections On Self & Soul: Hofstadter, Douglas R, Dennett, Daniel C.: 9780465030910: Amazon.com: Books](https://www.amazon.com/Minds-Fantasies-Reflections-Self-Soul/dp/0465030912/ref=sr_1_1?tag=swamidass-20)

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [January 28, 2023, 4:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/27 "2023-01-28T16:10:47Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> I highly recommend this book.

I was about to suggest that a high school class that studied the bat paper probably would have got it from that book.

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**Author:** ![OneGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e0b2c6/32.png) [@OneGod](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/OneGod)\
**Post date:** [January 30, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/28 "2023-01-30T02:38:09Z")

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> [@Tim](#):
>
> [Mizrahi Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews) are a separate group:

Yes they are a separate (and very small) group today. But the ancient groups are Shepardic and Ashkenazi. Further, we are talking of R-M124 not M124, please.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [January 30, 2023, 5:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/29 "2023-01-30T05:36:27Z")

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> [@OneGod](#):
>
> But the ancient groups are Shepardic and Ashkenazi.

You keep saying this, but you provide **no evidence** for this claim.

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> Further, we are talking of R-M124 not M124, please.

**Regardless** of whether we refer to this gene as “R-M124”, “M124” or “rm124”, we have **no evidence** that this gene “dominantly enter[ed] the Ashkenazi pool” _in the first place_.

So **why are we “talking of” this gene at all?**

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**Author:** ![OneGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e0b2c6/32.png) [@OneGod](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/OneGod)\
**Post date:** [January 31, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/30 "2023-01-31T01:18:25Z")

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> [@Tim](#):
>
> **Regardless** of whether we refer to this gene as “R-M124”, “M124” or “rm124”, we have **no evidence** that this gene “dominantly enter[ed] the Ashkenazi pool” _in the first place_.

I never claimed that R-M124 is “dominant.” Honestly, I do not know why the Jews are exploring this particular gene. What matters is that this gene is found in about 2% of Ashkenazi and 50-100% in various communities in India, including Yadavas.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [January 31, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/31 "2023-01-31T01:46:24Z")

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> [@OneGod](#):
>
> I never claimed that R-M124 is “dominant.”

You wrote:

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> The question is how does the rm124 found in india dominantly enter the Ashkenazi pool.

[Addendum: on closer examination, it is possible that you meant “found in india dominantly” and _not_ “dominantly enter the Ashkenazi pool” – if so it is (i) very unclear writing and (ii) still false – as R-M124 **is not dominant** in India. The only place it appears to be even close to dominant is among Kurmanji Kurds.]

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> What matters is that this gene is found in about 2% of Ashkenazi and 50-100% in various communities in India …

1. Where did you get this 2% figure from?

2. You are oversimplifying things:

> **Haplogroup R2a** , or **haplogroup R-M124** , is a [Y-chromosome haplogroup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups) characterized by [genetic markers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_markers) M124, P249, P267, L266, and is mainly found in [South Asia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia) as well as in [Central Asia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia), [Caucasus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), [Southwest Asia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia), and the Arab countries with low frequencies.

> **West Asia**
> 
> The haplogroup R-M124 frequency of 6.1% (6/114) was found among overall Kurds[[21]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-21) while in one study which was done with 25 samples of Kurmanji Kurds from [Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)), R-M124 has been observed at 44% (11/25)[[22]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-22)
> 
> In Caucasus high frequency was observed in [Armenians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians) from Sason at 18% (18/104)[[23]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-23) while it was observed at 1% in Armenians from Van. R2 has been found in [Chechens](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechens) at 16%.[[24]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Nasidze2003-24) R-M124 has been found in approximately 8% (2/24) of a sample of [Ossetians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians) from [Alagir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alagir).[[25]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-NasidzeOssetians-25)
> 
> In the Caucasus, around 16% of [Mountain Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Jews), 8% of [Balkarians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars),[[26]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Battaglia2008-26) 6% of [Kalmyks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyks),[[27]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Nasidze2005-27) 3% of [Azerbaijanis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijanis),[[24]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Nasidze2003-24) 2.6% of [Kumyks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumyks),[[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Yunusbaev2006-28) 2.4% of [Avars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Avars),[[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Yunusbaev2006-28) 2% of [Armenians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians),[[24]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Nasidze2003-24) and 1% to 6% of [Georgians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians)[[24]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Nasidze2003-24)[[26]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Battaglia2008-26)[[29]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Semino2000-29) belong to the R-M124 haplogroup. Approximately 1% of [Turks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people)[[30]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-30) and 1% to 3% of [Iranians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iran)[[31]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-Regueiro2006-31) also belong to this haplogroup.
> 
> In [Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) R-M124 follows a similar distribution as [R1a1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a1_(Y-DNA)) with higher percentages in the southeastern Iran. It has been found at Frequencies of 9.1% at [Isfahan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isfahan), 6.9% at Hormozgan and 4.2% in Mazandaran.[[32]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#cite_note-32)

– [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124)

This, and intermarriage, provides ample explanation for R-M124 among Mizrahi Jews.

Also, “50-100%” seems an exaggeration – “The frequency is around 10-15% in [India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) and [Sri Lanka](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka) and 7-8% in [Pakistan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan).”

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> 50-100% in various communities in India, **including Yadavas**.

Please **provide a citation** for this claim about the Yadavas’ genetic makeup. If you do not have a citation then please **STOP** making claims about this _ **mythical** _ group.

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**Author:** ![OneGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e0b2c6/32.png) [@OneGod](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/OneGod)\
**Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 2:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/32 "2023-02-02T02:48:14Z")

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> [@Tim](#):
>
> If you do not have a citation then please **STOP** making claims about this _ **mythical** _ group.

[rm124.pdf](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/uploads/short-url/bGcaIh84L2W9LEF91wTtls3YTzX.pdf) (4.3 MB)  
[sahoo.pdf](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/uploads/short-url/cc9HYrcRmfmSbjVK7wkP0TS0HsD.pdf) (949.9 KB)

Kindly see doc rm124 for info about the gene. (I am not able to immediately access the 2% figure. Will do should you want it).  
Kindly see doc sahoo for the the r-m124 in india.  
I will be thankful if you would restate your questions after reading these docs. I shall surely try to reply.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/33 "2023-02-02T04:17:28Z")

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> [@OneGod](#):
>
> Kindly see doc rm124 for info about the gene. (I am not able to immediately access the 2% figure. Will do should you want it).  
> Kindly see doc sahoo for the the r-m124 in india.  
> I will be thankful if you would restate your questions after reading these docs. I shall surely try to reply.

This was in reply to my request:

> [@Tim](#):
>
> > [@OneGod](#):
> >
> > 50-100% in various communities in India, **including Yadavas**.
> 
> Please **provide a citation** for this claim about the Yadavas’ genetic makeup. If you do not have a citation then please **STOP** making claims about this _ **mythical** _ group.

I will note that your documents **MAKE NO MENTION** of the Yadavas – so they are completely _non-responsive_ to my request.

Also, rather than providing pdf copies, with rather mangled formatting, of webpages, could you please instead simply provide links to the webpages in question.

I will therefore, provisionally, conclude:

1. That we have no solid evidence of the Yadavas existence.

2. We have no evidence of their genetic makeup to compare with other groups.

Therefore (and until we _do_ get such evidence) discussion of Yadavas is **utterly pointless!**

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