Are ERVs evidence of Evolution? YES!

I’d say it never does.

I’m not following. How are data different from evidence, in your opinion?

“Carefully interpreting” raises two interesting questions:

  1. If you don’t deal with the evidence yourself, how can you possibly know whether someone else is carefully or not carefully interpreting it?
  2. Why are you portraying science as retrospective interpretation of data, instead of formulating and testing hypotheses?

But how would you interpret any evidence provided by me or anyone else? Again, you wrote:

I’m not seeing any such passion in your answers. Can you give an example of such evidence and where/how you are passionately showing it to people?

If illustration helps, here are three of my papers involving endogenous retroviruses. Please note that none are evolutionary biology, so I hope that would enhance your perception of my credibility in the subject:

https://journals.asm.org/doi/epdf/10.1128/jvi.64.5.2245-2249.1990
https://journals.asm.org/doi/epdf/10.1128/jvi.64.10.5199-5203.1990
https://www.embopress.org/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.1460-2075.1995.tb07227.x

I primarily want to call your attention to the second one, in which we tested a hypothesis that explained all the extant data (and got me a prestigious Leukemia/Lymphoma Society of America postdoctoral fellowship) and showed it to be false. Do you see anyone doing anything of the sort in creation science?

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Generally by rejecting it outright or by saying “I’ll look into that”, which I’ve come to understand means “I’ll look up why creationists say it’s wrong and then reject it”.

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Hi John! Unfortunately, my experience is that many people who have scientific expertise are blinded by dogma. Scientists may have more knowledge than me in their respective fields (as I’m sure you do), but that doesn’t mean I should uncritically accept everything they say. The way I evaluate evidence is that I try to listen to various perspectives. If a source clearly shows bias and inability to consider alternatives, I’m less likely to trust the source (including creationist sources). If a source admits something that is highly inconvenient and contrary to their own perspective, I’m more likely to consider the evidence as good (since they’d prefer the evidence didn’t go in that direction). Sources who demand that I bow the knee to their authority because of their expertise, are sources that I generally ignore. I also do my best to evaluate evidence with the knowledge that I have. Regarding my passion for sharing scientific evidence against evolution: I’m not sure why you are picking on my introduction statement (not very fitting for a peaceful science forum and I’m surprised they allowed your comment). I wasn’t attempting to offer an evidence here. You are always welcome to visit my channel if you are truly interested.

This approach seems largely based on attempting to evaluate perspectives rather than understanding and evaluating validity of the evidence itself.

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That’s fine… but I do wish you did this consistently, since you said the following in the hangout with Dr. Hunter.

Mabus says:

“Rebecca eats up everything Hunter says and rejects actual evidence. The incredulity runs deep here.”

Okay. I have to respond to this because I want to just say… YES!
I do eat up everything Dr. Hunter says!

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Possible. I’ve even encountered scientists who are eager to explain away results counter to their dearly held opinions, sometimes in their reviews of my own manuscripts. But have you also explored the possibility that you have at least a mote in your own eye, that you may be running the evidence through a biased filter? Remember the Feynman quote, “"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool”.

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Hi Rebekah!
You seem to not be responding to what I wrote:

See above. I’m suggesting that you evaluate evidence yourself. Hearsay isn’t evidence.

Then I don’t see that you are engaging with any scientific evidence at all. The graphs and tables in the primary scientific literature are not listened to.

I don’t know of a single creationist who produces scientific evidence. Do you?

Which I just did (the second paper linked above) and you ignored. Why?

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any evaluation of any evidence, Rebekah. Can you share an example of evidence you’ve evaluated?

I thought that my questions were quite peaceful.

I didn’t claim that you were offering evidence–quite the contrary! Your responses are evidence-free. As a scientist and a Christian, I am truly interested in the evidence God provides us, hence my questioning of your claim of passion regarding evidence. While I view YT as a great help in doing flooring, electrical, and plumbing work in my home, getting science from it is a farce in most cases.

I thought you might be different, but I am apparently wrong. From everything you’ve written here, you reject both scientific evidence and even the scientific method itself when it doesn’t tell you what you want to hear.

I note that you did not respond to my questions:

If you think I’m mistaken, please point me to some of the scientific evidence–not anyone else’s evaluation, not a YT video–that you have personally analyzed and you see as against evolution.

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Why do you need someone to provide evidence? You said you’re passionate about showing people the evidence against evolution - so you should already have the evidence, and be showing it.

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It doesn’t appear that way. For example, you wrote in the comments to your video:

You said that if “it didn’t look like all the living things fit neatly on a tree, either by their physical characteristics or DNA, that would prove evolution false.” Well, the truth is, they don’t fit neatly into a tree.

They fit neatly in the context of what we understand as biologists. Show me the evidence you’ve examined. Again, no hearsay. YOUR analysis and showing of evidence.

If you make a tree based on genetics, you’ll get one tree.

Not sure what you mean by “genetics,” but the least noisy is the one from DNA/RNA sequences translated into proteins.

If you make a tree based on morphology, it won’t match the genetic tree.

In general, it matches quite well. We understand that morphologies are more complex and that this can produce differences. That being said, almost everyone agrees that sequence data produce more accurate trees.

If you make a tree based on the proteins, you won’t get the same tree.

Now this is an interesting claim. Can you point me a single example (evidence, not hearsay) to different trees from genetics (after you define it) and proteins?

There is definitely a similarity in the structure of viruses and ERVs.

This represents a truly monumental level of ignorance. Retroviruses produce DNA proviruses from their RNA genomes that integrate into the host genome. It’s literally an essental step in their replication cycle. We observe this in real time. There is a vast amount of evidence regarding how those proviruses turn on oncogene expression during carcinogenesis.

That is some of the context of my papers that I linked to above and you predictably ignored.

People named them endogenous retroviruses, but maybe the name was assigned prematurely.

That’s absurd. Perhaps you just made that up because you are unwilling to look at evidence.

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Hello everyone,

I just had another conversation with Rebekah on her channel. Even though we don’t agree on anything, I really enjoyed it and the feeling was mutual.

When I mentioned the peaceful science forum and that we can continue the conversation here, Rebekah said she found some replies to her rather off-putting which made her decide to longer be part of the forum. I found this rather alarming.

Tone policing is something I really don’t like to do. However, when something like this happens, I rather want to make sure that conversations remain productive. Rebekah has shown that she is willing to accept corrections and act on it, and I find it sad that she wanted to leave the forum so quickly.

I told Rebekah that she could be on the forum and choose freely which persons she wants to interact with and which to ignore. At the same time, I do want everyone to keep all of this in mind if she hopefully returns.

Greetings,
Ness

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I can, if you allow that exon vs. intron sequences are an acceptable approximation.

https://academic.oup.com/sysbio/article-abstract/66/5/857/3091102?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Reddy S et al. 2017. Why Do Phylogenomic Data Sets Yield Conflicting Trees? Data Type Influences the Avian Tree of Life more than Taxon Sampling. Syst. Biol. 66:857-879.

If this discussion has not been productive, I would suggest it is not because of the tone of those asking Rebekah to substantiate her claims, but because she is refusing to respond meaningfully. I don’t see how that situation will be helped by encouraging her to ignore queries she doesn’t like.

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@anon68328710
John Mercer brings up some comments you write on your youtube video regarding the possibility that you might get incongruent phylogenetic trees derived from different genetic loci.

It’s true, you might, and there are plenty of examples in the literature. However what you’re not explaining in your comments is the degree of disagreement between the different trees. The trees can be strictly incongruent because they’re not exactly alike, and yet still be highly similar in degree.

I think it would be really helpful here to consider an analogy:
Imagine you have a large number of ultra-sensitive thermometers that can measure the temperature in a room to an accuracy of six significant figures. As in, it measures not just 21 degrees Celsius, but 21.0031 degrees Celsius.

Now suppose you have thirty different thermometers of that type, and you put them all in the same room on a line, and you measure literally thirty different values between 21.0031 and 21.0078 degrees Celsius.

So now you have this problem that no two thermometers match exactly, they all disagree on the exact temperature on the room. Should we now conclude we have no good evidence for the temperature in the room since all the thermometers disagree? Of course not.

The fact is they’re all extremely close to each other, which in a sense is to be expected since we can easily imagine that the temperature in the room isn’t actually so exactly uniform in all positions. So we can still say that the thermometers match each other to an extremely high degree, and for that reason we can be highly confident that the true temperature in the room lies somewhere in the measured range.

It is highly likely that the true temperature in the room is somewhere in the range between 21.0031 and 21.0078 degrees Celcius.

In the field called statistics, there are principles that describe how significant some particular matchs is. Unsurprisingly called Statistical significance - Wikipedia.

This same principle applies with phylogenetic trees derived from different sets of data.

Each phylogenetic tree thus is a kind of “measurement” of the relationships between the species(it gives us some information about what the true relationship is like, like how the thermometer also gives us some information about what the true temperature is like), given the “thermometers” used (which could be particular genes, or morphology).

To bring this back to phylogenetic trees, you can quickly determine the degree of similarity with phylogenetic trees when you see which species are grouped together. You will generally never find a phylogenetic tree that puts a bird among sharks, or a pig among plants, or a primate among insects, etc.
The trees might disagree on the scale of similar clades (is this species of mouse A more closely related to this other species of mouse B, or to mouse C? Some trees will disagree on this scale.)

Even if we don’t get completely exact matches every time (though often times we do get that), the fact that we get highly similar trees even if not always exact matches, is still a very significant result.

It is the result we expect given common descent, and we do not have any other good reasons for expecting the phylogenetic trees from different and independent data sets to give so similar (and often time exactly matching) results.

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The problem is that evolutionary biologists and creationists talk at cross-purposes. What should a reasonable discourse with creationists look like? What can one say that hasn’t already been said 100 times? Creationists do not recognize the criteria of scientific argumentation. They do not even recognize standards of rationality. They know the divine truth and subordinate everything to it. Discussing things with them is like playing pigeon chess. Just my two cents.

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I suppose that’s preferable to her offering the “some of the commenters are off-putting” excuse up as a reason to ignore all comments and not engage anyone at all.

Which is what they always do. It’s actually a strategy they are unknowingly brought up with. Because there’s always going to be someone being either harsh or nasty on an online forum, and since they’ve been taught to reify the whole “civility” and tone stuff, it inadvertently becomes a mechanism that helps shelter them from getting into the weeds and discovering their superficial excuses don’t work.

Like in Rebekah´s youtube video comments, where she dismisses phylogentics as evidence for common descent because some loci or data sets give incongruent phylogenetic trees. There’s a perfectly good response to this that completely undermines her rebuttal, but she will never discover it now. She has already left the forum with the nasty commenters excuse. She will never discover why she was wrong now.

Her bubble remains intact and evolutionists are just mad and nasty. The “civility” excuse served it’s purpose. The mechanism has ensured her blinders can remain on.

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The purpose should never be to try to convert the creationist you are discussing with. It’s a waste of time. People generally don’t change their mind in public.

Unless you know each other privately and can discuss stuff free from all the social context and pressures, it can only ever be for the benefit of onlookers who—because they don’t personally engage—are also more emotionally free to think about what is being said.

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AND

It’s also the not the purpose of this forum to persuade people, but to try to understand one another (ie: Common Ground).

That goal becomes problematic with people that have no interest in understanding.

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It does happen occasionally. @Thacker realising that the ‘quotes’ from his AI weren’t real and ceasing to use them was a recent breath of fresh air.

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They often remind me of this guy who tried to challenge a boxing coach. Except he seemed to quickly realize he was in over his head. A creationist would say they kicked the coach’s butt and then the coach was rude and arrogant.

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