# Barbara Forrest: The Trojan Horse at Dover
**URL:** https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774
**Category:** Peaceful Science
**Tags:** Science, Society
**Created:** [December 15, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774 "2020-12-15T21:35:27Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2020, 11:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/21 "2020-12-16T23:37:43Z")
> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Your definition seems very ahistorical, and disconnected from what scientists actually do in our work.
I don’t think so. It seem both entirely historical and in my experience very much connected to what scientists actually do.
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/22 "2020-12-16T23:45:01Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> You didn’t list a hypothesis, null hypothesis, specific methodology with controls, data sets, statistical analysis, or a p value.
So what? Some of these conditions are to be implicitly understood. If you look outside to observe if it is raining, you _must_ have some expectation of what should be observable if it rains. As in a hypothesis that predicts what you you should see when it rains, and what you should see if it does not. That likely has something to do with how wet the ground looks, how cloudy it is, and whether you can actually see the rain falling through the air. And the control is of course how it usually looks when it isn’t raining.
Looking out of your own eyes is the method. You know, the same method you use when you look at everything else when doing science, whether you’re looking through a telescope and tracking the trajectory of some object in the sky, or through a microscope, or just noticing if media in your incubator has changed color.
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### Author:  [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 1:37am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/23 "2020-12-17T01:37:25Z")
> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> I see the work that scientists do as a highly specialized and skilled form of something we all do, in almost every waking moment.
I see the work that scientists do as something we all CAN do, but most do not.
We most easily learn this method of applying skepticism to our intuitions as children. Many adults, perhaps a majority, become resistant to it.
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### Author:  [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/24 "2020-12-17T02:36:27Z")
> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Whereas, I’m with Maarten Boudry and Jerry Coyne: When a plumber fixes the sink, he is using science.
I would tend to label that “science/empiricism” or similar – to indicate that I’m talking about something that is very science-like, but not necessarily “science” in its narrowest sense of the word. I think Coyne phrases it “Science Broadly Construed”.
But I would be surprised if even science in its narrowest sense didn’t have varying degrees of standards, when considering divergent problems like (i) how to get my research to a level of precision that it can be published in a peer-reviewed journal, versus (ii) why isn’t my equipment working? I rather suspect that most scientists don’t “list a hypothesis, null hypothesis, specific methodology with controls, data sets, statistical analysis, or a p value” for the latter. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/25 "2020-12-17T15:34:18Z")
> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Whereas, I’m with Maarten Boudry and Jerry Coyne: When a plumber fixes the sink, he is using science.
I wouldn’t describe doing plumbing as doing or using science. I would, however, describe auto mechanics and detectives as true scientists who test hypotheses.
> [@Tim](#):
>
> (ii) why isn’t my equipment working? I rather suspect that most scientists don’t “list a hypothesis, null hypothesis, specific methodology with controls, data sets, statistical analysis, or a p value” for the latter.
Statistical analyses aren’t part of the definition. Controls are, and are routinely used in day-to-day troubleshooting, which tends to be more about “why isn’t my experiment working” than “why isn’t my equipment working.”
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/26 "2020-12-17T15:38:57Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Some of these conditions are to be implicitly understood.
In science, we don’t assume methods, hypotheses, statistical analyses, and so forth.
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Looking out of your own eyes is the method. You know, the same method you use when you look at everything else when doing science, whether you’re looking through a telescope and tracking the trajectory of some object in the sky, or through a microscope, or just noticing if media in your incubator has changed color.
That is not what I do when I do science. I actually measure stuff.
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### Author:  [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/27 "2020-12-17T15:40:31Z")
> [@Mercer](#):
>
> I wouldn’t describe doing plumbing as doing or using science. I
So what forms the basis of how a plumber will design a plumbing system for a home, or diagnose and solve a problem when a system is malfunctioning? Does he contemplate the poetry of William Blake? Does a god come down and reveal to him the solution? Or what?
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/28 "2020-12-17T15:43:12Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> That is not what I do when I do science. I actually measure stuff.
And when you measure stuff, how do you perform those measurements?
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/29 "2020-12-17T15:45:28Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> And when you measure stuff, how do you perform those measurements?
Depends on the method I am using, which I would also publish alongside the measurements.
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### Author:  [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/30 "2020-12-17T15:46:39Z")
> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> So what forms the basis of how a plumber will design a plumbing system for a home,
That would be engineering, much of which comes from science, but that doesn’t constitute doing science.
> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> …or diagnose and solve a problem when a system is malfunctioning?
Only in rare cases would plumbing involve hypothesis testing, while auto mechanics do it daily.
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/31 "2020-12-17T15:48:09Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Depends on the method I am using
Okay. Give an example of an instrument you use.
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/32 "2020-12-17T15:52:11Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Give an example of an instrument you use.
An ELISA might be a good example. I don’t simply look at the plate and say some wells have more color than others. I measure the absorbance. I also wouldn’t say that an ELISA test was positive without describing the methods used and the controls that were used. If I were comparing two groups I would use statistical tests to see if there was a significant difference between them instead of simply saying they look different.
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/33 "2020-12-17T15:53:41Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> An ELISA might be a good example. I don’t simply look at the plate and say some wells have more color than others. I measure the absorbance.
How do you know what the absorbance is?
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/34 "2020-12-17T15:54:34Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> How do you know what the absorbance is?
By measuring the transmittance of light in a filter based spectrophotometer.
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/35 "2020-12-17T15:56:08Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> By measuring the transmittance of light in a filter based spectrophotometer.
That’s what the plate reader is doing, not you. How do you know what the absorbance is?
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/36 "2020-12-17T15:57:39Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> That’s what the plate reader is doing, not you.
I use the plate reader to make the measurement, just as you would use a ruler to measure length or a balance to measure mass. This is an objective test that can be repeated by others as required by the scientific method. It isn’t, “well, some of the wells were bluer than others”.
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/37 "2020-12-17T15:58:20Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> I use the plate reader to make the measurement, just as you would use a ruler to measure length or a balance to measure mass.
Okay, so when you use a ruler to measure some length, how do you tell what length you’re measuring?
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> This is an objective test that can be repeated by others as required by the scientific method. It isn’t, “well, some of the wells were bluer than others”.
In my experience everyone with functioning eyes can look out of their window to see if it’s raining.
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/38 "2020-12-17T15:59:36Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Okay, so when you use a ruler to measure some length, how do you tell what length you’re measuring?
You determine which pip is closest to what you are measuring. You don’t say, “well, it looks really long”.
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/39 "2020-12-17T16:00:25Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> You determine which pip is closest to what you are measuring. You don’t say, “well, it looks really long”.
And to determine which pip is closest to what you’re measuring, you… look at it, and say “well, looks like it’s this one”. Right?
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/barbara-forrest-the-trojan-horse-at-dover/12774/40 "2020-12-17T16:04:16Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> And to determine which pip is closest to what you’re measuring, you… look at it, and say “well, looks like it’s this one”.
Just as anyone else can do using the same method, and then get the same results. It is an objective and repeatable measurement.
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