# Behe and His Critics

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Design\
**Created:** [November 26, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204 "2018-11-26T01:59:03Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204/1 "2018-11-26T01:59:03Z")

</div>

We are ENV again today:

> **[Michael Behe and His Critics | Evolution News](https://evolutionnews.org/2018/11/michael-behe-and-his-critics/)**
>
> If the past is any guide, where the critics are substantive rather than snarky or patronizing, we’re in for a good debate.

> Looking forward to the release of [_Darwin Devolves_](https://darwindevolves.com/), I noticed that computational biologist [Joshua Swamidass at Washington University](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/inviting-behe-and-axe-into-dialogue/2998) claims that Michael Behe avoids engaging critics. What?! Swamidass lodges the same charge against Douglas Axe. This is so plainly false it just about made my jaw fall open:
> 
> > My concerns about Behe and Axe are more substantial than the wording of a phrase here or there. Having seen a preprint of his book, I’m very concerned about Behe’s unwillingness to engage with critics. I am doubly concerned about Axe’s unwillingness.
> 
> Swamidass, writing at _Peaceful Science_ , subsequently added a note of correction, partly taking it back.
> 
> > Both have selectively engaged at times with scientists in the past. The concern here is in the response to requests to engage and clarify over the last several years.
> 
> Biologist Ann Gauger [notes in response to Swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/inviting-behe-and-axe-into-dialogue/2998/21), “To accuse [Behe and Axe] of making an end run around the scientific establishment is disingenuous. They have already faced the scientific establishment.” Whether the subject is Behe or Axe’s work, there is plenty to argue about, but _that_ is inarguable.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204/2 "2018-11-26T04:13:49Z")

</div>

A half-hearted effort from Klinghoffer to plug the new book.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![pevaquark](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pevaquark/32/2324_2.png) [@pevaquark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/pevaquark)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 4:28am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204/3 "2018-11-26T04:28:36Z")

</div>

Congratulations! I hope that the new Behe book is something actually new and not a recycled argument that has been addressed by the scientific community that appears to cherry pick a few results while ignoring vast swathes of other experimental evidence.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 4:29am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204/4 "2018-11-26T04:29:51Z")

</div>

We will share about it more once the book is published end of February. Looking forward to it.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![pevaquark](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pevaquark/32/2324_2.png) [@pevaquark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/pevaquark)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 4:37am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204/5 "2018-11-26T04:37:19Z")

</div>

I don’t have very high expectations. Just recounting engagements with [Thornton](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/10/15/the-blind-locksmith-continued-an-update-from-joe-thornton/#.W_t36-JRd9o) and [Miller](http://www.millerandlevine.com/evolution/behe-2014/Behe-1.html) (some of many) to name two and counter responses from DI/Behe, what is going to change? The same arguments appear to occur over and over again in an endless cycle while the scientific community actually continues to learn things.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204/6 "2018-11-26T04:41:11Z")

</div>

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Biologist Ann Gauger [notes in response to Swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/inviting-behe-and-axe-into-dialogue/2998/21), “To accuse [Behe and Axe] of making an end run around the scientific establishment is disingenuous. They have already faced the scientific establishment.” Whether the subject is Behe or Axe’s work, there is plenty to argue about, but _that_ is inarguable

This is worth repeating. Yes both Behe and Axe published their ideas in the primary scientific literature. Science examined the claims **and firmly rejected them both** based on the evidence not supporting the grandiose ID conclusions. Instead of doing additional scientific work to correct the flaws Axe and Behe both chose to write popular press layman’s books **where they simply repeated the already scientifically rejected claims.** To everyone in science I know that constitutes an “end run” around science. That is what is _really_ inarguable.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 29, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/behe-and-his-critics/3204/7 "2018-11-29T04:41:17Z")

</div>

This topic was automatically closed 3 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.