# BioLogos: Teaching Evolution to Students of Faith

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [August 21, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284 "2018-08-21T14:14:59Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/21 "2018-08-22T20:35:23Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Huge difference between adults at secular universities and children at the elementary or high school level. Very different set of laws.

If you feel this way why don’t we just take evolution (a religiously controversial subject) out of the curriculum entirely and introduce it at the University level.

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**Author:** ![Michael\_Callen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michael_callen/32/897_2.png) [@Michael\_Callen](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michael_Callen)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/22 "2018-08-22T20:49:43Z")

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@colewd I don’t believe controversy is the issue at all, Bill. It is legality. I think if you seriously focused upon controversy, you’d run into all sorts of issues (debate, for instance, always includes controversial topics, with both sides being argued.) Maybe you were teasing? In that case, you _ **MUST** _ use an emoji!! 🤣 This one works for most occasions.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/23 "2018-08-22T21:05:35Z")

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Evolution is science. It is now taught in pre-school.

> **[Grandmother Fish: A Child's First Book of Evolution](https://www.amazon.com/Grandmother-Fish-Childs-First-Evolution/dp/1250113237/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?tag=swamidass-20)**
>
> 4.7 out of 5 stars, 
>   
>   
>   
> $17.09

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/24 "2018-08-22T21:06:58Z")

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> [@Michael\_Callen](#):
>
> Maybe you were teasing? In that case, you _ **MUST** _ use an emoji!! 🤣 This one works for most occasions.

No, I am not teasing. I am putting forward a discussion point that has not been examined. Just remove the subject until you are ready to discuss religion and all the alternatives.

Taking away criticisms of the theory that are legitimate is not educational its indoctrination.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/25 "2018-08-22T21:11:51Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> . It is now taught in pre-school.

Let the indoctrination begin in preschool. 🙂

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**Author:** ![theman8469](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/theman8469/32/4404_2.png) [@theman8469](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/theman8469)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/26 "2018-08-22T21:51:00Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> The Berkeley Center for the Study of Religion

Here in the UK evolution is taught to those five and above. Schools in and around Oxford recommend this as a resource for teachers [https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13722-evolution-myths-religion-and-evolution-are-incompatible/](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13722-evolution-myths-religion-and-evolution-are-incompatible/). This how science and religion is regarded in schools in the UK - a sneery NOMA.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/27 "2018-08-22T22:08:13Z")

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> [@theman8469](#):
>
> Here in the UK evolution is taught to those five and above. Schools in and around Oxford recommend this as a resource for teachers [https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13722-evolution-myths-religion-and-evolution-are-incompatible/](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13722-evolution-myths-religion-and-evolution-are-incompatible/). This how science and religion is regarded in schools in the UK - a sneery NOMA.

If I understand it correctly, there is not the same separation of church and state in the UK as we have in the US. Even then, people should know better than to act as if evolution falsifies religion. They might as well trot out Heliocentrism while they are at it.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/28 "2018-08-22T22:10:19Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> If you feel this way why don’t we just take evolution (a religiously controversial subject) out of the curriculum entirely and introduce it at the University level.

There is an obvious secular purpose for teaching science in public schools which is why evolution is not removed from the science curriculum. If students are ever going to go into a career in the biological sciences or pursue a degree in the field then they need to understand the theory of evolution.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/29 "2018-08-22T22:13:01Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Taking away criticisms of the theory that are legitimate is not educational its indoctrination.

9th grade science class is not the proper venue for criticizing a scientific theory. Those conversations need to take place with other scientists through peer reviewed papers, presentations at conferences, and face to face discussions. High school science classes teach the scientific consensus, and the consensus is evolution.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/30 "2018-08-22T22:32:40Z")

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It is not indoctrination, it is science. And science is neutral on the existence of God. If you say Grandmother Fish is indoctrination of children, how so? Would a primer on Gravity or Astronomy be indoctrination as well?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/31 "2018-08-22T22:32:54Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> If students are ever going to go into a career in the biological sciences or pursue a degree in the field then they need to understand the theory of evolution.

They can learn it in college along with the issues with the theory. The claims in the biology text books are just speculation at this point and supported with an ad populum argument which is a logical fallacy. Most the scientists believe this or most the scientists believe that.

Patrick supports teaching that we evolved from fish to pre schoolers yet if he tried to support that claim given our current knowledge of molecular differences he would struggle.

This not a testable claim yet he wants to tell pre schoolers it is true. Do you see anything wrong with the picture 🙂

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/32 "2018-08-22T22:36:11Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> It is not indoctrination, it is science.

Ok. How do you test the claim we evolved from fish? If you cannot then you are claiming an untested hypothesis is something that actually happened.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/33 "2018-08-22T22:36:25Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> They can learn it in college along with the issues with the theory. The claims in the biology text books are just speculation at this point and supported with an ad populum argument which is a logical fallacy.

Evolution is not speculation. Evolution is one of the most well supported theories in all of the sciences.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> Patrick supports teaching that we evolved from fish to pre schoolers yet if he tried to support that claim given our current knowledge of molecular differences he would struggle.
> 
> This not a testable claim yet he wants to tell pre schoolers it is true. Do you see anything wrong with the picture

What do you mean it isn’t testable? With the fossil record alone we have fish to amphibian, amphibian to reptile, reptile to mammal, and ape to human transitional fossils. The genetics are also pretty convincing. You may not accept this evidence, but it has convinced the scientific community.

More importantly, it is the theory you need to learn in order to understand biology and work as a biologist.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/34 "2018-08-22T22:38:57Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> They can learn it in college along with the issues with the theory. The claims in the biology text books are just speculation at this point and supported with an ad populum argument which is a logical fallacy. Most the scientists believe this or most the scientists believe that.
> 
> Patrick supports teaching that we evolved from fish to pre schoolers yet if he tried to support that claim given our current knowledge of molecular differences he would struggle.
> 
> This not a testable claim yet he wants to tell pre schoolers it is true. Do you see anything wrong with the picture

I support teaching all the sciences as well as reasoning, human empathy, and critical thinking at as young an age as possible. Four year old love dinosaurs. And seven year olds love astronomy. I don’t know what you mean that “I would struggle teaching molecular differences” to children?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/35 "2018-08-22T22:39:40Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Evolution is not speculation. Evolution is one of the most well supported theories in all of the sciences.

This is political rhetoric.

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> ? With the fossil record alone we have fish to amphibian, amphibian to reptile, reptile to mammal, and ape to human transitional fossils.

You have amphibians, reptiles and mammals. The TO is a “just so” story with no test that validates the claim.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/36 "2018-08-22T22:42:28Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> This is political rhetoric.

The only people bringing politics into this are the ones who want evolution removed from schools.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> You have amphibians, reptiles and mammals. The TO is a “just so” story with no test that validates the claim.

If you can convince the scientific community of these claims then I will support the removal of evolution from the science curriculum in public schools.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/37 "2018-08-22T22:42:39Z")

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Again, how would you test the claim that we evolved from fish. Is the book telling the kids it is a tested hypothesis?

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/38 "2018-08-22T22:42:51Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> This is political rhetoric.

Political rhetoric. No, it is science. The same science that extends human life expectancy and provides for the improvement of the human conditions for billions of people.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> You have amphibians, reptiles and mammals. The TO is a “just so” story with no test that validates the claim.

Don’t forget the living dinosaurs called birds.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/39 "2018-08-22T22:45:36Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Again, how would you test the claim that we evolved from fish.

Phylogenetics. If humans evolved from a common ancestor shared with other species then you should see a correlation between phylogenetic trees based on morphology and genetics.

You can read about the nested hierarchy here:

> **[29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#nested_hierarchy)**
>
> This article directly addresses the scientific evidences in favor of macroevolutionary theory and common descent. It is specifically intended for those who are scientifically minded but, for one reason or another, have come to believe that...

The section detailing how phylogenetics is used to test evolution is found here:

> **[29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_consilience)**
>
> This article directly addresses the scientific evidences in favor of macroevolutionary theory and common descent. It is specifically intended for those who are scientifically minded but, for one reason or another, have come to believe that...

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/40 "2018-08-22T22:46:30Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> The only people bringing politics into this are the ones who want evolution removed from schools.

I respectively disagree with you here and believe the existence of the NCSE supports my claim. Evolutions grand claims like universal common ancestry are untested and are clearly ideological in nature.

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