# BioLogos: Teaching Evolution to Students of Faith

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [August 21, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284 "2018-08-21T14:14:59Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/61 "2018-08-23T00:28:24Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> That is settled law in the United States.

Law like science is always tentative 🙂

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**Author:** ![Michael\_Callen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michael_callen/32/897_2.png) [@Michael\_Callen](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michael_Callen)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/62 "2018-08-23T00:31:29Z")

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> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> That’s why a philosophy class should be mandatory

Come on… The opportunity to discuss evolution is in the science class. Are you suggesting that the teacher of a philosophy class would be suitable to guide and adjudicate the discussion? We can go with that, but who knows where the opinions will end up without some science teacher there?

It seems like a bit of a free-for-all, whereas the conversation would be more profitable in the science class. Still, I agree with you that philosophy should be mandatory.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/63 "2018-08-23T00:55:37Z")

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2 posts were split to a new topic: [Could Religious Groups Have Say on Science Education?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/could-religious-groups-have-say-on-science-education/1313)

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/64 "2018-08-23T00:38:26Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> NCSE should have a lot of say what goes in science textbooks AND religious organization should have NO say.

I think the NCSE is partially a religious organization. I went to one of their meetings with the local San Francisco bay area atheists organization and saw the joint planning going on. They are clearly pushing a secular world view.

Why do we need any advocacy groups pushing the education material.

I agree with you both sides should have a say in what goes on.

The claims of evolution have been maintained because it is seen as a God substitute. I think this is very bad for science. Its truth (the grand claims of evolution UCD etc) is based on assumption and not tested science yet sold as fact.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/66 "2018-08-23T00:45:58Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Having religious organizations to suggest language that is more neutral is usually a facade to insert their religious beliefs, ethics, and values into the textbooks. This is now happening in the area of gender.

The only think worse is having one religious organization controlling all the content 🙂

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/67 "2018-08-23T00:48:31Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I think the NCSE is partially a religious organization. I went to one of their meetings with the local San Francisco bay area atheists organization and saw the joint planning going on.

Please elaborate? How is NCSE partically a religious organization? You are not going to claim atheism is a religion, are you? Tell me more of this San Francisco meeting. What groups sponsored it?  
I hope you are not conflating secularism (no religion) with atheism (opinion that there is no God). Secular organizations are not atheist organizations.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/68 "2018-08-23T00:54:30Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> You are not going to claim atheism is a religion, are you?

Are you claiming it is not?

Do you think Atheists are more responsible in overseeing educational content the Theists?

The meeting was arranged by the NCSE and was to update the local Atheist organization on evolutionary theory and have an open discussion how to push acceptance of the theory in the community.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/69 "2018-08-23T01:02:16Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Are you claiming it is not?
> 
> Do you think Atheists are more responsible in overseeing educational content the Theists?
> 
> The meeting was arranged by the NCSE and was to update the local Atheist organization on evolutionary theory and have an open discussion how to push acceptance of the theory in the community.

Of course atheism is not a religion. It is merely an opinion that the Christian God and all other gods don’t exist.

I really think that you are conflating atheism with secular humanism. There are relatively few atheist organizations but thousands of secular humanist organizations and even more purely secular organizations.

NCSE is by bylaws a secular organization dedicated to the advance of science education in the United States. It is bylaws neutral on the existence or absence of God.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/70 "2018-08-23T01:03:24Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> > The meeting was arranged by the NCSE and was to update the local Atheist organization on evolutionary theory and have an open discussion how to push acceptance of the theory in the community.
> 
> Of course atheism is not a religion. It is merely an opinion that the Christian God and all other gods don’t exist.

That is not true according to leading atheists. One of the key contributions of the New Atheists has been creating religious practice around atheism.

> **[Sunday School for Atheists](https://www.ethicalstl.org/sunday-school-for-atheists/)**
>
> Time Magazine has an article on the Sunday School in Palo Alto, CA, created by Ethical Culture Leader Lois Kellerman a few years ago for an American Humanist Association (AHA) community. A few

> **[Religious naturalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_naturalism)**
>
> Religious naturalism is a framework for religious orientation in which a naturalist worldview is used to respond to types of questions and aspirations that are parts of many religions. It has been described as "a perspective that finds religious meaning in the natural world."
> Religious naturalism can be considered intellectually, as a philosophy, and it can be embraced as a part of, or as the focus of, a personal religious orientation. Advocates have stated that it can be a significant option ...

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/71 "2018-08-23T01:14:20Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> That is not true according to leading atheists. One of the key contributions of the New Atheists has been creating religious practice around atheism.
> 
> ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/8/8bbfbc47d474bff37ee32bfd708091487b1056e7.png) [The Ethical Society of St. Louis – 26 Nov 07](https://ethicalstl.org/sunday-school-for-atheists/)
> 
> ### [Sunday School for Atheists](https://ethicalstl.org/sunday-school-for-atheists/)
> 
> Time Magazine has an article on the Sunday School in Palo Alto, CA, created by Ethical Culture Leader Lois Kellerman a few years ago for an American Humanist Association (AHA) community. A few
> 
> [en.wikipedia.org](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_naturalism)
> 
> ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/1X/13e624647964c41758a0bf72c15ddd54a7f24b01.jpg)
> 
> ### [Religious naturalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_naturalism)
> 
> Religious naturalism (RN) combines a naturalist worldview with perceptions and values commonly associated with religions. In this, “religious” is understood in general terms, separate from established traditions, in designating feelings and concerns (e.g. gratitude, wonder, humility, compassion) that are often described as spiritual or religious. Naturalism refers to a view that the natural world is all we have substantiated reason to believe exists, and there is no substantiated r Areas of inqui…

They are not true atheists. They are AINOs (Atheist in Name Only) They defile true atheism. If we had any doctrine, dogma or creed, they would be violating them. 🕶 I refuse to pray for them. May nobody have mercy on their non-existent soul. 😝 But we love them and wish them a life full of happiness, meaning, and purpose. 😀

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/72 "2018-08-23T01:16:06Z")

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They include Dawkins my friend.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/73 "2018-08-23T01:17:50Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> They include Dawkins my friend.

Richard sure gets around. I am sure he will appear on Peaceful Science for somewhere between $15,000 and $25,000 an hour.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/74 "2018-08-23T01:19:10Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> > They include Dawkins my friend.
> 
> Richard sure gets around. I am sure he will appear on Peaceful Science for somewhere between $15,000 and $25,000 an hour.

I hope he wouldnt attempt to take money from a poor scientist like me. Maybe he will make a contribution? Don’t we all want a more peaceful scientific society?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/75 "2018-08-23T01:21:25Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> They are not true atheists.

What is an orthodox atheist?

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/76 "2018-08-23T01:24:20Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I hope he wouldnt attempt to take money from a poor scientist like me. Maybe he will make a contribution? Don’t we all want a more peaceful scientific society?

Dawkins is now a business enterprise. Just like Hawkings was.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/77 "2018-08-23T01:24:24Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> They are not true atheists. They are AINOs (Atheist in Name Only) They defile true atheism. If we had any doctrine, dogma or creed, they would be violating them. 🕶 I refuse to pray for them. May nobody have mercy on their non-existent soul. 😝 But we love them and wish them a life full of happiness, meaning, and purpose. 😀

I love this. Sounds like what the Catholics and Protestants went through. I advise against a holy war 🙂

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/78 "2018-08-23T01:27:58Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> What is an orthodox atheist?

An orthodox atheist is an atheist who can speak the following with no errors in pronunciation in seven seconds or less:

> “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:30am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/79 "2018-08-23T01:30:55Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> NCSE is by bylaws a secular organization dedicated to the advance of science education in the United States. It is bylaws neutral on the existence or absence of God.

Why in the world is focused on only one area of only one of the sciences? Along with global warming?

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/80 "2018-08-23T01:40:21Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Why in the world is focused on only one area of only one of the sciences? Along with global warming?

Because that is where the Christian Right continues to insert religious beliefs into the sciences - Evolution and Climate Chance. Note that there is no issues with the description of gravity in textbooks or medical sciences (save some anti-vaccines, homeopathic medicine, and faith healers).

But the latest issue in California revolves around the banning of Gay Conversion Therapy for children. Guess who is not in favor of a ban?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/81 "2018-08-23T01:45:15Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Because that is where the Christian Right continues to insert religious beliefs into the sciences - Evolution and Climate Chance.

Exactly. As Josh said both sides need to have an input into this. Open debate is healthy especially when conflicting ideologies are involved.

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