# BioLogos: Teaching Evolution to Students of Faith

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [August 21, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284 "2018-08-21T14:14:59Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/102 "2018-08-23T02:32:56Z")

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> [@glipsnort](#):
>
> That’s a list of activities that do _not_ include teaching about religion in the classroom.

Because teaching about religion in a public school classroom is illegal. No body does it any more. That was what the Wedge Document was all about. The attempt to get religion back into the classroom. Today if a public school teacher taught religion in a public school, he/she would be fired before the end of the school day. It is that simple. Every public school teacher knows this. Football coaches are learning this also about team praying.

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**Author:** ![glipsnort](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/glipsnort/32/1541_2.png) [@glipsnort](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/glipsnort)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/103 "2018-08-23T02:34:48Z")

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Try taking a look at [this](https://www.aclu.org/other/statement-bible-public-schools-first-amendment-guide). This seems like a pretty clear refutation of your claim: " _First_ , while it is constitutional for public schools to teach children about religion, it is _unconstitutional_ to use public schools to _advance particular religious beliefs_" . It’s possible that you understand constitutional law better than the ACLU, but I’m skeptical.

In any case, I await your citation of a relevant statute or ruling.

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**Author:** ![glipsnort](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/glipsnort/32/1541_2.png) [@glipsnort](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/glipsnort)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/104 "2018-08-23T02:35:46Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Because teaching about religion in a public school classroom is illegal. No body does it any more. That was what the Wedge Document was all about. The attempt to get religion back into the classroom. Today if a public school teacher taught religion in a public school, he/she would be fired before the end of the school day. It is that simple. Every public school teacher knows this. Football coaches are learning this also about team praying.

Are you genuinely unable to grasp the distinction between teaching religion and teaching about religion? If so, there’s no point to continuing this conversation.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/105 "2018-08-23T02:37:24Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Interestingly enough, FFRF does not include TE/EC as creationism:
> 
> > There is a spectrum of creationist belief. At one end are the Young Earth Creationists, who believe that the world is between 4,000-6,000 years old and that god created all the species (humans and dinosaurs roamed the earth together, under this view). This bible-based belief is contradicted by all available scientific evidence. Intelligent Design (“ID”), somewhat farther along the spectrum, is equally unscientific. ID claims life is too complex to have evolved without a creator, but that the creator need not be complex in order to have generated complex life into existence. **Even though creationists reject evolution,** their ruses continue to evolve, and every few decades a new creationist ploy surfaces. At bottom, all creationist theories are attempts to do the impossible — square scientific facts with the bible.  
> > [https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/20084-creationism](https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/20084-creationism)

Believe me, FFRF knows TE/EC well, as well as Biologos and Dr. Collins. As I have said before Biologos and Dr. Collins plays by the rules. In no case has Biologos or Dr. Collins attempted to insert TE/EC into the public schools. There is a big difference between rhetoric and grandstanding and actually doing an action in a public school.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/106 "2018-08-23T02:40:22Z")

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> [@glipsnort](#):
>
> Try taking a look at [this](https://www.aclu.org/other/statement-bible-public-schools-first-amendment-guide). This seems like a pretty clear refutation of your claim: " _First_ , while it is constitutional for public schools to teach children about religion, it is _unconstitutional_ to use public schools to _advance particular religious beliefs_ " . It’s possible that you understand constitutional law better than the ACLU, but I’m skeptical.
> 
> In any case, I await your citation of a relevant statute or ruling.

And take a look at how it turned out:

> **[Georgia school district scraps bible class after FFRF complaint - Freedom...](https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/27886-georgia-school-district-scraps-bible-class-after-ffrf-complaint)**
>
> A Georgia school district scrapped plans for a proposed bible class partnership with a local Christian group after the Freedom From Religion Foundatio...

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/107 "2018-08-23T02:52:50Z")

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> [@glipsnort](#):
>
> Are you genuinely unable to grasp the distinction between teaching religion and teaching about religion? If so, there’s no point to continuing this conversation.

I am certainly able to grasp the distinction. In theory a neutral world religion class could be taught in a public high schools. Also, in theory, a Bible as Literature or the Bible as History class could be taught in a public high school. Several school districts have attempted to establish such classes usually with private donations from Evangelical Christian groups for the extra teachers/staff and materials required. But in the end the results are the same. The classes aren’t neutral and aren’t taught as literature, history or unbiased survey of world religions. It usually turns into a mess and it is either forced to be canceled because of expensive lawsuits or due to the acrimony and divisiveness between students (different denominations of Christians, Catholics, Jews, and Muslims) and teachers on how to teach it doctrinal correct.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/108 "2018-08-23T16:47:55Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Can you describe the test that shows we evolved from fish?

Already did.

“Phylogenetics. If humans evolved from a common ancestor shared with other species then you should see a correlation between phylogenetic trees based on morphology and genetics.”

> [@colewd](#):
>
> How do you reconcile the different proteins that emerged. How do you reconcile the difference is splicing patterns. How do you reconcile how gills turned into lungs. How do you reconcile how fins turned into arms and legs? How do reconcile the origin of hair, skin, consciousness, abstract thought.

Mutations filtered through natural selection. These mechanisms produce a nested hierarchy, and a nested hierarchy is exactly what we observe.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> The Theobald paper shows similarities which is evidence for common descent. The bigger problem is you need to explain the differences.

Mutations produce the differences. We observe them happening all of the time.

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**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/109 "2018-08-23T17:11:58Z")

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Come on… I wasn’t talking about teaching evolution in philosophy. I was talking about using philosophy to teach students how to dialogue. The right and wrong ways of doing so. How to understand and make arguments and how to respond to them. Which would help in science discussions

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/110 "2018-08-23T17:30:42Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Mutations produce the differences. We observe them happening all of the time.

So your claim is that mutation to DNA can build lungs, muscles, brains? Please support this claim.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/111 "2018-08-23T17:34:25Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I think the NCSE is partially a religious organization. I went to one of their meetings with the local San Francisco bay area atheists organization and saw the joint planning going on. They are clearly pushing a secular world view.
> 
> Why do we need any advocacy groups pushing the education material.
> 
> I agree with you both sides should have a say in what goes on.
> 
> The claims of evolution have been maintained because it is seen as a God substitute. I think this is very bad for science. Its truth (the grand claims of evolution UCD etc) is based on assumption and not tested science yet sold as fact.

I have often found that these types of discussions get diverted into culture war territory. This is because the science is settled on the issue. Those who are fighting against evolution have no chance in a scientific debate, so they try to use the rhetoric of politics and religion to argue against it.

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**Author:** ![Michael\_Callen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michael_callen/32/897_2.png) [@Michael\_Callen](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michael_Callen)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/112 "2018-08-23T17:36:35Z")

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> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> Come on… I wasn’t talking about teaching evolution in philosophy. I was talking about using philosophy to teach students how to dialogue. The right and wrong ways of doing so. How to understand and make arguments and how to respond to them. Which would help in science discussions

I agree then. I guess I misunderstood you, thinking that you were suggesting the philosophy class _as an alternative to_ an actual discussion in science class. I think that, apart from having a philosophy class, encouraging the discussion when there are controversial topics is good either way, because proper dialog can be modeled. Even if one never gets to attend a philosophy class, the positive experience will have occurred.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/113 "2018-08-23T17:36:53Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> So your claim is that mutation to DNA can build lungs, muscles, brains? Please support this claim.

Already did. The correlation between molecular and morphological phylogenies is that evidence.

> **[29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#independent_convergence)**
>
> This article directly addresses the scientific evidences in favor of macroevolutionary theory and common descent. It is specifically intended for those who are scientifically minded but, for one reason or another, have come to believe that...

The similarities and differences match the pattern that mutation and selection produce. It’s just like matching fingerprints. The fingerprint of evolution is a tree like pattern of both similarities and differences, and it is all over biology.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/114 "2018-08-23T17:39:36Z")

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A post was split to a new topic: [Is Science Tentative or Settled?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-science-tentative-or-settled/1318)

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/115 "2018-08-23T17:46:25Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Science is always tentative. Your suggestion that it is settled suggests that is not a scientific theory at all.

What I am suggesting is that the theory of evolution is so well supported by mountains of evidence that there is no serious debate on the issue. At most, there are arguments about the very fine details of how evolution works, such as the impact of niche construction or the impact of methylation patterns on selection of specific sequences, but the major parts of the theory are so well supported that scientists don’t waste their energy on debating them. In the same way, no one debates the Germ Theory of Disease because there is so much evidence demonstrating that infectious diseases are caused by microorganisms.

I think we all enjoy your enthusiasm and you seem like a wonderful person. However, I don’t think you realize just how much science you are arguing against. When you say that evolution is speculative and not testable . . . well, it just isn’t true. It sounds really foolish, and I mean that in the most friendly manner possible. It’s a bit like someone jumping on a forum with NASA engineers and telling them how the moon landings were faked.

If you are interested, I would suggest that you read this essay:

> **[p142\_53FCollins.pdf](https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/p142_53FCollins.pdf)**
>
> 491.64 KB

It was written by Dr. Francis Collins who headed the human genome project, is the current head of the NIH, and is also a devout christian. That essay was written by a christian for christians, and I think there is a lot in there that you would benefit from.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/116 "2018-08-23T17:46:37Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> The similarities and differences match the pattern that mutation and selection produce. It’s just like matching fingerprints. The fingerprint of evolution is a tree like pattern of both similarities and differences, and it is all over biology.

This is merely an assertion. I can also assert that the pattern of mutation only shows sequential differences and no evidence how new anatomical features are formed.

Mutation is much more likely to break down a sequence then improve it. Mutation alone as a creative force is a very weak claim.

How do you account for genes that are common to humans and Zebra fish but do not exist in mice? How do you account for genes that exist in rats and chimps but not in humans and mice.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/117 "2018-08-23T17:48:12Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> What I am suggesting is that the theory of evolution is so well supported by mountains of evidence that there is no serious debate on the issue.

With all due respect this is a marketing pitch. Why does the theory need a marketing pitch?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/118 "2018-08-23T17:48:33Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> **I think we all enjoy your enthusiasm and you seem like a wonderful person**. However, I don’t think you realize just how much science you are arguing against. When you say that evolution is speculative and not testable . . . well, it just isn’t true. It sounds really foolish, and I mean that in the most friendly manner possible. It’s a bit like someone jumping on a forum with NASA engineers and telling them how the moon landings were faked.

I should also add that @colewd has been uncommonly respectful, compared some of the others that have pressed this case. He has also conceded points. He is not merely a polemicist. He appears to be giving an honest effort to engage this, even if we think he is wrong.

Thank you @colewd.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/119 "2018-08-23T17:54:22Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> This is merely an assertion.

No, it is a scientifically measurable fact. We can see this pattern forming through the mechanisms of evolution in known populations, such as lab mice:

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S156772491400097X](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S156772491400097X)

Moreover, it is one of the most logical and obvious outcomes of evolutionary outcomes. Due to the lack of gene flow between species there will be an accumulation of different mutations in each species. This causes lineages to diverge. You also have vertical inheritance which passes down common DNA that lineages will share. So you have shared DNA and lineage specific mutations that form a tree like pattern. This is the unavoidable consequence of evolutionary mechanisms.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> Mutation is much more likely to break down a sequence then improve it. Mutation alone as a creative force is a very weak claim.

Then how do you account for the physical differences between chimps and humans? What causes those physical differences? In biology, we have concluded that it is the differences in the DNA sequence of our genomes. Do you have a different conclusion?

> [@colewd](#):
>
> How do you account for genes that are common to humans and Zebra fish but do not exist in mice? How do you account for genes that exist in rats and chimps but not in humans and mice.

Genes can be lost through deletion in any lineage. What we shouldn’t see is a gene shared by chimps, humans and mice where humans and mice have 100% similarity between their genes while the same functional chimp gene differs by 50%. If species were separately designed/created this could certainly be one of the outcomes, but evolution can’t do that.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/120 "2018-08-23T18:15:00Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> No, it is a scientifically measurable fact. We can see this pattern forming through the mechanisms of evolution in known populations, such as lab mice:

You have not come close to supporting your claim that mutations can create new anatomical features. The reality is you cannot.

You maybe able to support a lessor claim but that is not the Grand claim of evolution that random genetic changes along with selection pressure is responsible for the diversity of life.

You are throwing out words like fact which shows an attempt to sell an unsupported claim.

Human evolution is a different question and I have had discussions with Josh on this subject. I think one of the big challenges is reconciling the splicing code and gene expression pattern differences.

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Genes can be lost through deletion in any lineage. What we shouldn’t see is a gene shared by chimps, humans and mice where humans and mice have 100% similarity between their genes while the same functional chimp gene differs by 50%. If species were separately designed/created this could certainly be one of the outcomes, but evolution can’t do that.

You are ignoring contradictory evidence. This is a pattern I see with evolutionists which only adds to my skepticism. Common descent only explains similarities at the mutation level it does not explain large gene and morphological changes.

Functional information is a real issue that needs to be dealt with.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/biologos-teaching-evolution-to-students-of-faith/1284/121 "2018-08-23T18:17:56Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> You are ignoring contradictory evidence. This is a pattern I see with evolutionists which only adds to my skepticism. Common descent only explains similarities at the mutation level it does not explain large gene and morphological changes.

It explains the mutation-level similarities **and differences** so well that it is sufficiently strong evidence for me. It does not explain everything, but it explains a lot.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> You are ignoring contradictory evidence.

I have yet to see any contradictory evidence. Gaps in knowledge are not evidence against common descent.

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