# Comments on Attempts to Explain Flagellum

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [February 21, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660 "2020-02-21T23:09:54Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/1 "2020-02-21T23:09:54Z")

</div>

> [@Please List Attempts to Explain Flagellum](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/please-list-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9656/1):
>
> Please list out all the attempts you can. It does not matter if the attempt is judged successful. I’d just like to see an attempt at listing the best attempts.

Even one attempt shows Behe made a false claim. 🙂

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/2 "2020-02-21T23:26:00Z")

</div>

> [@Please List Attempts to Explain Flagellum](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/please-list-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9656/1):
>
> Though notice the word “Darwinian,” with this qualifier he may be correct. Does anyone explain things by exclusively “Darwinian” terms?

Darwinian points to a mechanism that gives direction to the change occurring. I think I may be mistaken that everyone would agree that you will not likely get a flagellum without any direction to whatever change is responsible for its origin.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [February 21, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/3 "2020-02-21T23:43:54Z")

</div>

> [@Please List Attempts to Explain Flagellum](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/please-list-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9656/1):
>
> Though notice the word “Darwinian,” with this qualifier he may be correct. Does anyone explain things by exclusively “Darwinian” terms?

It’s against the DI’s charter to mention anything about evolution without also sticking in “Darwin”, “Darwinian”, or “Darwinism”. All part of their propaganda strategy to confuse the public.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/4 "2020-02-22T00:06:41Z")

</div>

> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> Even one attempt shows Behe made a false claim.

Yes, but the more claims, the more false it becomes. Maybe Behe is gunning for the record! Let’s help him out.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/5 "2020-02-22T00:07:39Z")

</div>

> [@colewd](#):
>
> Darwinian points to a mechanism that gives direction to the change occurring.

Come again?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 2:46am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/6 "2020-02-22T02:46:51Z")

</div>

This thread is an irrelevant diversion.

Christians that accept Evolution dont have to stand on the head answering this question. God designed the various flagella … but flagella cannot prove God.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 7:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/7 "2020-02-22T19:09:06Z")

</div>

> [@Please List Attempts to Explain Flagellum](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/please-list-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9656/2):
>
> One of the classics.

behe actually comment about this paper. even dr Matzke reject it.

> [@Please List Attempts to Explain Flagellum](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/please-list-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9656/8):
>
> Anyway, here’s some more:

im not sure that co-option will work. what is the chance to get say 10 different proteins from other biological systems to form a working flagellum?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/8 "2020-02-22T19:27:05Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> not sure that co-option will work. what is the chance to get say 10 different proteins from other biological systems to form a working flagellum?

@scd  
All things are possible with God… even evolving flagella!!!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 7:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/9 "2020-02-22T19:51:23Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> what is the chance to get say 10 different proteins from other biological systems to form a working flagellum?

What is the chance that you’d get some particular mountain? What is the chance that Mt Fuji turned out exactly the way it did?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/10 "2020-02-22T20:41:01Z")

</div>

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> What is the chance that you’d get some particular mountain? What is the chance that Mt Fuji turned out exactly the way it did?

its not the same. in the mountain example any shape is ok. not so with the flagellum example.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/11 "2020-02-22T20:38:52Z")

</div>

> [@Please List Attempts to Explain Flagellum](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/please-list-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9656/14):
>
> What is the chance that you’d get some particular mountain? What is the chance that Mt Fuji turned out exactly the way it did?

its not the same. in the mountain example any shape is ok. not so with the flagellum example.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/12 "2020-02-22T21:08:57Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> its not the same. in the mountain example any shape is ok.

So what? What is the likelihood you get some particular mountain?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![RonSewell](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ronsewell/32/6194_2.png) [@RonSewell](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/RonSewell)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 10:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/13 "2020-02-22T22:09:59Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> what is the chance to get say 10 different proteins from other biological systems to form a working flagellum?

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> What is the chance that you’d get some particular mountain?

> [@scd](#):
>
> its not the same. in the mountain example any shape is ok. not so with the flagellum example.

Perhaps not quite as permissively varied as mountains, but not that particular either. Nature’s achievement of motility does not depend on a singular exact recipe. Motility can be had by a similar approach taken with a spectrum of proteins and arrangements, as per the linked survey paper:

[Tree of motility – A proposed history of motility systems in the tree of life](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7004002/)  
_Motility often plays a decisive role in the survival of species. Five systems of motility have been studied in depth: those propelled by bacterial flagella, eukaryotic actin polymerization and the eukaryotic motor proteins myosin, kinesin and dynein. However, many organisms exhibit surprisingly diverse motilities, and advances in genomics, molecular biology and imaging have showed that those motilities have inherently independent mechanisms. This makes defining the breadth of motility nontrivial, because novel motilities may be driven by unknown mechanisms. Here, we classify the known motilities based on the unique classes of movement‐producing protein architectures. Based on this criterion, the current total of independent motility systems stands at 18 types. In this perspective, we discuss these modes of motility relative to the latest phylogenetic Tree of Life and propose a history of motility._

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/14 "2020-02-22T23:28:38Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> im not sure that co-option will work. what is the chance to get say 10 different proteins from other biological systems to form a working flagellum?

Lottery fallacy.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 11:01am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/15 "2020-02-23T11:01:30Z")

</div>

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> So what? What is the likelihood you get some particular mountain?

very small but again-any shape is ok. its not the case with a biological system since most shapes are non functional. if you will take 10 different proteins and mix them by combination you will get a non functional system.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 11:07am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/16 "2020-02-23T11:07:44Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> very small

So how did we get this particular mountain if the likelihood is very small? Isn’t the argument that you are making that occurrences with very small likelihood can’t be believed so they must have been designed?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 12:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/17 "2020-02-23T12:39:28Z")

</div>

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> So how did we get this particular mountain if the likelihood is very small?

because there are many other possible shapes that can represent a mountain. thus any shape that we will get is ok. on the other hand not any mix of proteins will give us a functional system. thus its not the same.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/18 "2020-02-23T12:49:25Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> because there are many other possible shapes that can represent a mountain. thus any shape that we will get is ok. on the other hand not any mix of proteins will give us a functional system. thus its not the same.

So any mix of proteins that doesn’t function, will not stick around. Okay, so what?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 12:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/19 "2020-02-23T12:52:18Z")

</div>

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> So any mix of proteins that doesn’t function, will not stick around. Okay, so what?

so what is the chance to get a working system by a combination of several parts from other systems?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [February 23, 2020, 12:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660/20 "2020-02-23T12:52:59Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> so what is the chance to get a working system by a combination of several parts from other systems?

If unlikely things can still happen(like specific mountains), why does it matter?

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-attempts-to-explain-flagellum/9660.md?page=2)