# Common Ground on Bad Design

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798>\
**Category:** Peaceful Science\
**Created:** [September 24, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798 "2018-09-24T00:52:02Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 14\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/1 "2018-09-24T00:52:02Z")

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Continuing the discussion from [Who is Right About Sinuses?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/who-is-right-about-sinuses/1625/23):

An article from ENV (Discovery Institute) exposes some common ground. [Critic of Intelligent Design Acknowledges: “Bad Design” Arguments Don’t Work | Evolution News](https://evolutionnews.org/2018/09/critic-of-intelligent-design-acknowledges-bad-design-arguments-dont-work/) They quote me favorably,

> [@Who is Right About Sinuses?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/who-is-right-about-sinuses/1625/23):
>
> Though it is not the focus or precise argument of his book, Dr. Lents is often making a “bad design” argument for evolution. This is a common argument offered to support evolution, and Dr. Lents is certainly not the first to make it.
> 
> Having recognized that Dr. Lents holds to a very common view, I confess that I do not personally think the bad design argument is valid. In my view, it mistakes the quirks and “seams” in our body as errors, and makes a theological argument that extends beyond science. In contrast with the bad design argument, I prefer to insist science remain neutral and silent on theological arguments such as these, and see these quirks as biological mysteries that often reveal evidence of common descent, and non-intuitive details of how our bodies work. I know I may be in the minority among biologists in disputing the bad design argument, but I hope that could shift in the future. Nothing intrinsic to evolutionary science requires us to make those arguments.

Klinghoffer responds…

> Very good — I like the language about “seams.” I am looking right now at the sweater I’m wearing, and it too has “seams” while at the same time reflecting someone’s intelligent design. Thank you, Dr. Swamidass!
> 
> Swamidass adds,
> 
> > “Though the acrimony is not necessary, it is not surprising. These are the grand questions we are facing, and they are important.”
> 
> Yes, they are both grand and important.

I agree. It is good to find places of agreement, even across the divides.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/2 "2018-09-24T01:31:50Z")

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I still like Nathan Lents’ book “Human Errors”. It is a good read. Whether I was purposely designed this way or evolved to be like I am now, I am grateful for the ability of medical science and technology to “fix” the conditions that I have - a detached retina, a prostate that enlarging pushing into bladder, vitamin D deficiency, deviated septum, pulled Achilles tendon, torn ACL, and a degenerative disk. But other than that I was designed intelligently and perfectly according to plan by a designer who cares for me. If that were true I won’t need health insurance. I want to thank @NLENTS for coming to PS and engaging with us.

@gbrooks9 , @Eddie here is a plug for his book:

> **[Human Errors: A Panorama of Our Glitches, from Pointless Bones to Broken Genes](https://www.amazon.com/Human-Errors-Panorama-Glitches-Pointless/dp/1328974693?tag=swamidass-20)**
>
> 4.1 out of 5 stars, 
> ISBN: 978-1328974693, 
> Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 
> May 1, 2018, 
> $17.70

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/3 "2018-09-24T01:35:59Z")

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I agree. The @NLENTS book in not about the bad design argument. His larger points were missed in the exchange with DI.

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/4 "2018-10-22T20:24:51Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/5 "2018-11-22T00:03:53Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [December 25, 2018, 4:59am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/6 "2018-12-25T04:59:12Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [January 24, 2019, 10:10am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/7 "2019-01-24T10:10:58Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [February 27, 2019, 8:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/8 "2019-02-27T08:48:36Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [April 5, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/9 "2019-04-05T20:21:34Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2019, 1:04am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/10 "2019-05-16T01:04:17Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [June 24, 2019, 7:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/11 "2019-06-24T07:15:10Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [August 8, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/12 "2019-08-08T13:48:51Z")

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/13 "2019-09-23T17:07:59Z")

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**Post date:** [November 10, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/common-ground-on-bad-design/1798/14 "2019-11-10T23:46:28Z")

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