Creation Without A Creator?

In that case, you as an athiest have acknowledged a creator and the existence of divine influence…

Wow… should we bring out the champagne bottles?

really? how? I didn’t mean to.

Can’t have a creation without a creator…
Can’t have divine influence being separate from nature… Unless divine influence exists…

Really? Creation from nothing is not possible?

What if there was (is) no divine at all? Can’t have divine influence if there is no divine.

I guess you mean without a creator?.. how could you call it creation then?

Language is very flexible.


Ok… so can you define creation without a creator?

I think we would loose two basic ideas supplied by the word

  1. A personal agent involved in the act of creation
  2. A sense of beginning to “creation” and pre-existence of whoever is doing the creation.

How flexible can language become before communication fails?

Words get their meaning from the way that people use them.

This is much like the way that we use “creature” for an animal.

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Is it? Perhaps I missed that. Can you elaborate what a “creation” without a creator would mean?

Here is a book about creation from nothing:

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So Krauss uses the word “creation” for the universe?

Isnt this the one where he redefines nothing to be something? :wink:

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Yes and so do I. All of creation is the entire universe including the non-observable part.

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Well not really. His main premise from QM is that nothingness is an impossible state. Eventually something has to come into existence. So why not whole universes? So before the big bang there was no space, time, matter, energy - nothing. But nothingness is unstable. So poof, out of nothing comes the Big Bang. Really amazing, it is just like God creating the universe without the God.

An argument panned by most scientist of all stripes. Usually it is pseudohistory that trips atheists up, but here…?


If nothingness is really impossible, then the universe should not be expanding (there was no Big Bang), the universe should be of infinite expanse and age. Maybe there is some clever way to get around this.

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There’s no such thing as a creation without a creator.

How 'bout “creation ex nihilo”. It does, of course, require an eternal God.

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Yes, the old “Steady State” theory had some troubling implications.

As I understand it, one criticism of Krauss’s idea is that his starting point isn’t really nothing. Rather, it is nothing plus the laws of physics.


The Physics of Nothingness?