# Design and Nested Hierarchies

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [October 10, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066 "2019-10-10T17:08:14Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 24

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/464 "2019-10-23T22:02:13Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Our ability to generate sequences in the form of the English language is evidence of a mind being up to the task.

No, it isn’t. The _trained_ human ability to write isn’t evidence that “a mind” can wish a spliceosome into existence.

All the things you are claiming “minds” can do, we have overwhelming evidence requires the operation of vast amounts of technology and cooperation between physical individuals with limbs with which to manipulate their physical surroundings.

In short, technological civilizations. So what you’re saying is that once upon a time, space-aliens created life on Earth, using factories, laboratories, advanced technological equipment, and millenia of scientific and technological, not to mention cultural evolution on top.

They had to develop cultural learning practices, cooperate to gather resources, mine their planet for rare metals, refine them, invent and construct and develop technology and civilization and science, and then finally one day they created new life with a spliceosome and planted it on Earth.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/465 "2019-10-23T22:08:20Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Our ability to generate sequences in the form of the English language is evidence of a mind being up to the task.

Where is the evidence that this mechanism was responsible for the genes involved in gene splicing? I am not asking if it could do it, but did it do it. Where is that evidence?

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**Author:** ![Rich\_Hampton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e4f/32.png) [@Rich\_Hampton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rich_Hampton)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/466 "2019-10-23T22:09:04Z")

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In Intelligent Design theory, all that can be established is a willful intention behind a system or event. ID theory acknowledges that it is impossible to scientifically determine who or how many designers were involved or what methods they used to implement the design. That’s why ID theory is incapable of saying that God did it, even though that’s what it’s lay audience believes.

Furthermore, if we use humans (our only example of a sufficiently intelligent designer of complex systems) then we find a correlation between how complex something is and how many designers were involved.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/467 "2019-10-23T22:09:28Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> No, it isn’t. The _trained_ human ability to write isn’t evidence that “a mind” can wish a spliceosome into existence.

It’s evidence a mind can build a sequence. In the same vain the sun bending light did not confirm a black hole but it confirmed the mechanism mass produces.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/468 "2019-10-23T22:10:38Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> It’s evidence a mind can build a sequence.

Nobody disputes that humans can write sequences. That isn’t evidence that “minds” can wish spliceosomes into existence. Much less that they _actually did so_.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/469 "2019-10-23T22:12:36Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> In short, technological civilizations. So what you’re saying is that once upon a time, space-aliens created life on Earth, using factories, laboratories, advanced technological equipment, and millenia of scientific and technological, not to mention cultural evolution on top.

It could be space aliens or It could be God. Richard Dawkins posits space aliens 🙂

[![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/e/e8fd0f60337e7709b8bb8d943511fbf822a315e6.jpeg "Ben Stein vs. Richard Dawkins Interview") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc)

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/470 "2019-10-23T22:13:30Z")

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> [@Rich\_Hampton](#):
>
> In Intelligent Design theory, all that can be established is a willful intention behind a system or event. ID theory acknowledges that it is impossible to scientifically determine who or how many designers were involved or what methods they used to implement the design. That’s why ID theory is incapable of saying that God did it, even though that’s what it’s lay audience believes.
> 
> Furthermore, if we use humans (our only example of a sufficiently intelligent designer of complex systems) then we find a correlation between how complex something is and how many designers were involved.

Yabut, Bill Cole was once taught to read and write, so now mere thoughts created a spliceosome. QED.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/471 "2019-10-23T22:13:49Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Nobody disputes that humans can write sequences. That isn’t evidence that “minds” can wish spliceosomes into existence. Much less that they _actually did so_ .

It demonstrates the power of the mechanism. Thats the first step in hypothesis building.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/472 "2019-10-23T22:17:00Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> It demonstrates the power of the mechanism.

It demonstrates the requirements for the operation of the “mechanism” too. Cultural learning practices, physical brains and bodies, advanced technology.

So you’re saying there was once another sentient living organism on Earth well before the origin of plant and animal life, and they created eukaryotes with spliceosomes with their advanced biochemical manufacturing technology.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/473 "2019-10-23T22:18:38Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> It demonstrates the power of the mechanism. Thats the first step in hypothesis building.

Clearly your hypothesis building is ignoring the existence of self-splicing RNAs.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/474 "2019-10-23T22:20:25Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> So you’re saying there was once another sentient living organism on Earth well before the origin of plant and animal life, and they created eukaryotes with spliceosomes with their advanced biochemical manufacturing technology.

I am simply saying at this point that we have a known mechanism that can account for what we are observing. There are certainly issues with this claim but I think its time to put it on the table as now physics is running into the same wall with quantum gravity.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/475 "2019-10-23T22:21:38Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I am simply saying at this point that we have a known mechanism that can account for what we are observing.

Yes, we know. It’s called **evolution**. Thanks for playing.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/476 "2019-10-23T22:26:26Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I am simply saying at this point that we have a known mechanism that can account for what we are observing.

And by a “known” mechanism, you mean a technological civilization (extrapolated to be more advanced than our own), of living organisms with brains and bodies. Who used their science and technology and manufacturing to create organisms with spliceosomes. Billions of years ago before any eukaryotic life existed on Earth.

Because every single piece of evidence we have of what minds can imagine, we have just as much if not more evidence that “minds” need training and tutoring and practice to do complex physical tasks, and that no-one can do these things alone. And certainly not without a physical body. And that the more microscopic and complex their creations, the more advanced their civilization and technology is required to be.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/477 "2019-10-23T22:39:09Z")

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> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Because every single piece of evidence we have of what minds can imagine, we have just as much if not more evidence that “minds” need training and tutoring and practice to do complex physical tasks, and that no-one can do these things alone. And certainly not without a physical body. And that the more microscopic and complex their creations, the more advanced their civilization and technology is required to be.

A delivery of arrangement was certainly required. I agree with you. What the mind can do is plan how to arrange the abstract symbols knowing what they will produce. Where I come down on this is the simple to complex model does not look viable for living organisms or matter itself. It’s all complex. If as @Art claims that the eukaryotic cell and prokaryotic cell came from a common ancestor the ancestor cell was a monster.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/478 "2019-10-23T22:40:25Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Where I come down on this is the simple to complex model does not look viable for living organisms or matter itself. It’s all complex

Thanks for once again sharing Bill’s evidence free personal incredulity. We’ll file it with all the others.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/479 "2019-10-23T22:50:37Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I am simply saying at this point that we have a known mechanism that can account for what we are observing.

A supernatural designer can account for anything. That’s the problem.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/480 "2019-10-23T22:57:12Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> A supernatural designer can account for anything. That’s the problem.

I think this is the wall we are hitting. An omnipresent super intelligence appears to be the answer. It’s a very big concept but the evidence in biology and physics is taking us there as we compile evidence a mind is behind life and matter.

Mind along with matter as a viable scientific mechanism is an interesting concept. Play with it. There are places to explore as we better understand the unique capabilities of minds.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/481 "2019-10-23T23:05:46Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I think this is the wall we are hitting. An omnipresent super intelligence appears to be the answer.

It could be the answer for anything. If you find fingerprints at a crime scene, a supernatural designer could have put them there. The entire universe could have been created 5 minutes ago, complete with false memories and a false history. A supernatural designer could do that.

In explaining everything, it explains nothing.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/482 "2019-10-23T23:06:10Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> An omnipresent super intelligence appears to be the answer

Great! We’ll call that **Bill’s Hypothesis.**

Now all you have to do is come with a way to scientifically test it and publish the positive evidence results. Let us know how to falsify the idea too. 🙂

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/design-and-nested-hierarchies/8066/483 "2019-10-23T23:07:32Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> In explaining everything, it explains nothing.

How about in explaining everything it explains everything. Ie Biology gives the appearance of being designed because it is. Where is the evidence leading us?

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