# Did humans evolve as a population?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [November 5, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424 "2019-11-05T01:55:27Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 1:55am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/1 "2019-11-05T01:55:27Z")

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1. Does the scientific consensus say “Humans did not evolve as a population, we evolved from only two people who had no ancestors”?

2. Is there any scientific evidence that all humans descended only from two people created _de novo_ , who had no ancestors?

3. Does the scientific consensus say humans evolved as a population?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/2 "2019-11-05T01:57:24Z")

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Let’s start with this. What is “human”?

Turns out there is no consensus answer to this. Without an answer to this question, we can’t answer the rest of the questions with much certainty.

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/3 "2019-11-05T02:02:09Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Turns out there is no consensus answer to this.

If that is true then GAE is irrelevant. If we can’t define what a human is, we can’t talk about the genetic or genealogical ancestry of humans. If turnips can be humans, that complicates matters, doesn’t it?

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 2:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/4 "2019-11-05T02:31:18Z")

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Yes, there is consensus on what are humans. Humans are Hominids with significantly advanced cognitive skills and behaviors such as language, tool making industry, seafaring, jewelry making. Consensus is the genus Homo is at the beginnings of humanity.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/5 "2019-11-05T02:36:59Z")

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Actually, that is what makes space for some conceptions of the GAE. It is one of the key points of the book :).

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/6 "2019-11-05T02:48:34Z")

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GAE must be placed in a world of agriculture, metallurgy, and cities to be consistent with the Genesis story. @Alice_Linsley can place GAE in place and time with artifacts of the region. And Reich can place the DNA of their contemporaries to a location and time period.

God doesn’t have much freedom in time period, location, nor GAE’s genome composition as recent scientific discoveries continues to box in God pretty tightly in the specially created GAE. Science will continue to tell God where, when, and GAE’s genome has to be with tighter and tighter precision.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 3:13am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/7 "2019-11-05T03:13:30Z")

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So much confusion in that paragraph. Was that parody? You know otherwise I’m sure.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/8 "2019-11-05T03:23:41Z")

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GAE is the parody. 🕶

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**Author:** ![glipsnort](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/glipsnort/32/1541_2.png) [@glipsnort](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/glipsnort)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/9 "2019-11-05T03:25:08Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Let’s start with this. What is “human”?

In the context of what the scientific consensus says, is there any answer to that question that changes the answers to @Jonathan_Burke’s questions?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/10 "2019-11-05T03:29:07Z")

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Some of those questions it matters and some of them it does not.

The scientific consensus says that we evolved as a population, but there is complexity about whether or not all humans descend from a single couple.

Clearly, there is no concept of de novo creation in the scientific consensus.

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/12 "2019-11-05T04:14:25Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Actually, that is what makes space for some conceptions of the [GAE](http://peacefulscience.org/genealogical-adam-eve). It is one of the key points of the book :).

If we cannot define “human”, then GAE is meaningless.

> [@glipsnort](#):
>
> In the context of what the scientific consensus says, is there any answer to that question that changes the answers to @Jonathan_Burke’s questions?

Thank you.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> The scientific consensus says that we evolved as a population,

Do you agree with the scientific consensus or not?

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> …but there is complexity about whether or not all humans descend from a single couple.

This is very vague. Does the scientific consensus say all humans descend from a single couple?

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Clearly, there is no concept of de novo creation in the scientific consensus.

The scientific consensus would say there is no scientific evidence for a _de novo_ creation. I would agree.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/13 "2019-11-05T04:17:09Z")

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> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > The scientific consensus says that we evolved as a population,
> 
> Do you agree with the scientific consensus or not?

I agree with the consensus, except when I can show it is wrong, and then change the consensus. Science doesn’t work as an appeal to authority.

> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > …but there is complexity about whether or not all humans descend from a single couple.
> 
> This is very vague. Does the scientific consensus say all humans descend from a single couple?

All depends what you mean by “human.” It also depends what you mean by “all descend from a single couple.”

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/14 "2019-11-05T04:19:43Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I agree with the consensus, except when I can show it is wrong, and then change the consensus.

That sounds fine. So back to the question, do you agree with the consensus that we evolved as a population, or can you show it is wrong?

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Science doesn’t work as an appeal to authority.

No one here is appealing to science as an authority.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> All depends what you mean by “human.” It also depends what you mean by “all descend from a single couple.”

It sounds like you don’t want to answer the question.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/15 "2019-11-05T04:25:17Z")

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> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > I agree with the consensus, except when I can show it is wrong, and then change the consensus.
> 
> That sounds fine. So back to the question, do you agree with the consensus that we evolved as a population, or can you show it is wrong?

I think my position is nuanced, and has been explained in detail over the last couple years. Perhaps you’d like to review by reading this: [Heliocentric Certainty Against a Bottleneck of Two?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/heliocentric-certainty-against-a-bottleneck-of-two/61), and also, of course my new book: [The Genealogical Adam and Eve](http://peacefulscience.org/genealogical-adam-eve), or my PSCF article, [https://asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2018/PSCF3-18Swamidass.pdf](https://asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2018/PSCF3-18Swamidass.pdf).

At this time, I do not have more to add.

> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > All depends what you mean by “human.” It also depends what you mean by “all descend from a single couple.”
> 
> It sounds like you don’t want to answer the question.

No. I did answer the question. Many many times.

To answer this question, I’ve published a peer reviewed article on this, explained it precisely in public at professional risk, and have a book coming out next week. Much of this is on the PS and BL forums, though certainly not all of it.

I have made a strong enough case for well-defined (and limited) clams to convince scientists that have reviewed my work, and also philosophers of biology. With so much peer-reviewed and published work out there now, I don’t have anything more to add on an ad hoc basis. If you have any questions about what I’ve written in this body of work, I’ll consider clarifying.

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:29am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/16 "2019-11-05T04:29:42Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I think my position is nuanced,

You sound like you don’t agree with the scientific consensus.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> No. I did answer the question. Many many times.

Your answer is “It all depends on what you mean by “human””, and “It depends on what you mean by “all descend from a single couple””. So you don’t give the same answers I see in the scientific literature.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> …or my PSCF article, [https://asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2018/PSCF3-18Swamidass.pdf](https://asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2018/PSCF3-18Swamidass.pdf).

But you disavowed that paper and said it was wrong. You said you regretted it, and wished you had corrected it but could not think of a way of declaring you had changed your mind.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I have made a strong enough case for well-defined (and limited) clams to convince scientists that have reviewed my work, and also philosophers of biology.

This relates to GAE though, a different question. So I will go with the scientific consensus on the actual question under discussion, instead of what you say.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/17 "2019-11-05T04:31:55Z")

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> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > …or my PSCF article, [https://asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2018/PSCF3-18Swamidass.pdf](https://asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2018/PSCF3-18Swamidass.pdf).
> 
> But you disavowed that paper and said it was wrong. You said you regretted it, and wished you had corrected it but could not think of a way of declaring you had changed your mind.

That is false. I said that a couple sentences and references were wrong. I did not disavow the paper.

As I have said before, I have a book coming out in one month. For now, I have nothing more to add to it. I am now writing another book with WLC. That may be out next year. Looking forward to hearing your response once you get a chance to read both books!

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/18 "2019-11-05T04:41:39Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> That is false. I said that a couple sentences and references were wrong. I did not disavow the paper.

I don’t think you said it was just a couple of sentences and references. You said " The [GAE](http://peacefulscience.org/genealogical-adam-eve) paper is published, obviously, not mentioning the Bugg’s exchange, **but still in error**". You said “If I were to write it now, **I would write it very differently** ”, not “It’s a great paper, there are just a couple of sentences and references which are wrong”. You said that in contrast to the PSCF article, “My Dabar paper and the GAE book **handle it rightly** ”.

I am content for you to say “I don’t disavow the GAE stuff in the paper”, that makes sense, but the language you used about the paper in general was to say it was “in error”, that you would “write it very differently” if you were to write it now, and that your later writings handle the subject “rightly”.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> As I have said before, I have a book coming out in one month.

I have ordered your book for the GAE information. I don’t think it will have any convincing evidence to overturn the current scientific consensus on the evolution of humans as a population, or about population bottlenecks (if you had that you would have published it in the peer reviewed literature by now), but that’s ok I won’t be reading it for information on that subject. I’ll go to the relevant scientific literature for that.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/19 "2019-11-05T04:44:54Z")

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> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> I don’t think you said it was just a couple of sentences and references. You said " The [GAE](http://peacefulscience.org/genealogical-adam-eve) paper is published, obviously, not mentioning the Bugg’s exchange, **but still in error**". You said “If I were to write it now, **I would write it very differently** ”, not “It’s a great paper, there are just a couple of sentences and references which are wrong”. You said that in contrast to the PSCF article, “My Dabar paper and the [GAE](http://peacefulscience.org/genealogical-adam-eve) book **handle it rightly** ”.

Well now you know what I meant. There were **a couple of sentence and references** in the PSCF that were in error, and I would write them very differently now. The GAE book handles this very differently.

Sorry that wasn’t clear the first time. Thanks for clarifying it now!

> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > As I have said before, I have a book coming out in one month.
> 
> I have ordered your book for the [GAE](http://peacefulscience.org/genealogical-adam-eve) information. I don’t think it will have any convincing evidence to overturn the current scientific consensus on the evolution of humans as a population, or about population bottlenecks (if you had that you would have published it in the peer reviewed literature by now), but that’s ok I won’t be reading it for information on that subject. I’ll go to the relevant scientific literature for that.

Hmm. Seems like you don’t understand the point of the book yet. Surprising.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:46am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/20 "2019-11-05T04:46:38Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Well now you know what I meant.

Yes; you disagree with the scientific consensus. That is now clear.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Hmm. Seems like you don’t understand the point of the book yet. Surprising.

I understand the point of the book.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-humans-evolve-as-a-population/8424/21 "2019-11-05T04:48:53Z")

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> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > Well now you know what I meant.
> 
> Yes; you disagree with the scientific consensus. That is now clear.

False.

Please don’t make things like this up. It is not a wise or kind thing to do.

> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> > Hmm. Seems like you don’t understand the point of the book yet. Surprising.
> 
> I understand the point of the book.

Not based on the paragraph I quoted. That’s okay though. I hope it will make more sense soon.

Peace.

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