# Did Jesus Fulfill Messianic Prophecies?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Theology\
**Created:** [June 27, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806 "2019-06-27T16:56:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 4

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/62 "2019-06-28T15:05:10Z")

</div>

> [@colewd](#):
>
> > [@Roy](#):
> >
> > Do you have any reason to think Mary ever called Jesus “Immanuel” other than that is what the prophecy said he would be called? I don’t think you do.
> 
> I don’t think it is important how Mary referred to Jesus.

It was important enough to be included in Isaiah, and important enough for you to cite earlier - but now you say it’s _not_ important? That’s a Mandy Rice-Davies moment for sure.

> [@](#):
>
> You need to read all of Isaiah to put this into context. In Isaiah 9.6 he was referred to a Wonderful counsellor, Prince of peace, Mighty God, Holy one. It is possible that Mary never used any of these names either.

So? Isaiah doesn’t say that his mother will use those names. Isaiah _does_ say that his mother will call him “Immanuel”. Do you have any reason to think Mary ever called Jesus “Immanuel” other than that is what the prophecy said he would be called? Yes or no.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/63 "2019-06-28T15:32:29Z")

</div>

> [@Roy](#):
>
> So? Isaiah doesn’t say that his mother will use those names. Isaiah _does_ say that his mother will call him “Immanuel”.

The best translation is “and shall call his name Immanuel”. It is not clear this his her calling but it may be. Whether she used this name or not isn’t relevant. What is relevant is this name describes the essence of Jesus.

Be careful not to cherry pick. The bible has redundancy which helps with language ambiguity.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/64 "2019-06-28T15:38:20Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> > You need to understand the context of the bible. Some events may not have occurred yet. All Abrahamic religions expect Christ to return
> 
> Muslims and Jews expect Jesus to return? Really? I highly doubt that.

Jesus is a man. Christ is a title. One can expect Christ to come, but not believe it is Jesus.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/65 "2019-06-28T15:39:50Z")

</div>

> [@colewd](#):
>
> > [@Roy](#):
> >
> > So? Isaiah doesn’t say that his mother will use those names. Isaiah _does_ say that his mother will call him “Immanuel”.
> 
> The best translation is “and shall call his name Immanuel”. It is not clear this his her calling but it may be. Whether she used this name or not isn’t relevant.

If the prophecy says she “shall call his name Immanuel” then whether she called him “Immanuel” is relevant.

> [@](#):
>
> Be careful not to cherry pick.

I’m not the one trying to ignore inconvenient verses.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/66 "2019-06-28T15:42:00Z")

</div>

> [@Roy](#):
>
> If the prophecy says she “shall call his name Immanuel” then whether she called him “Immanuel” is relevant.

Why is it relevant given the overall context?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/67 "2019-06-28T15:48:45Z")

</div>

This is a silly squabble.

> [For to _ **us** _ a child is born, to _ **us** _ a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.](https://www.biblehub.com/isaiah/9-6.htm#)

It has nothing to do with what _Mary_ called him.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/68 "2019-06-28T15:53:10Z")

</div>

She might have called him ‘Josh’. 🙂 Right, @swamidass?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/69 "2019-06-28T15:59:39Z")

</div>

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> This is a silly squabble.
> 
> > [For to _ **us** _ a child is born, to _ **us** _ a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.](https://www.biblehub.com/isaiah/9-6.htm#)
> 
> It has nothing to do with what _Mary_ called him.

Did you quote the wrong verse deliberately or accidentally?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/70 "2019-06-28T16:17:54Z")

</div>

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Jesus is a man. Christ is a title. One can expect Christ to come, but not believe it is Jesus.

But Muslims expect the man, Jesus, to come back.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/71 "2019-06-28T16:21:14Z")

</div>

It’s the big picture.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/72 "2019-06-28T16:25:47Z")

</div>

And I’m sure she did recognize who he was and in effect call him Emmanuel, just as Christians do today.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/73 "2019-06-28T16:32:49Z")

</div>

And you’re “sure” because…?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/74 "2019-06-28T17:02:22Z")

</div>

Let me see if we have this straight:

In the Jewish tradition as recounted in the OT, there was a belief that there would someday come a Messiah, and this person would be referred to as “Immanuel.”

Then Jesus came along and led a group of Jewish followers. Some of them came to believe he was this Messiah, and started calling him “Immanuel.”

Is this what you are calling a fulfilled prophecy?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/75 "2019-06-28T17:07:38Z")

</div>

That isn’t it. Try again :).

Christians don’t call Jesus the name immanuel, but we think he fills that prophecy. Why?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/76 "2019-06-28T17:15:22Z")

</div>

What does the Name mean?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/77 "2019-06-28T17:16:19Z")

</div>

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Christians don’t call Jesus the name immanuel, but we think he fills that prophecy. Why?

That’s the big question. From what I can see, the Messiah is described as both a spiritual AND political figure. Jesus seemed to fall very short on the political side. The Messiah was supposed to be a king or a ruler that ruled over lands and kept the Jewish community safe in their homeland. These events were supposed to happen while the Messiah was alive on Earth (i.e. in his time). Jesus didn’t do that. So can the Messiah fulfill some of the requirements, but leave a large portion of other requirements unfulfilled?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/78 "2019-06-28T17:24:35Z")

</div>

The name literally means “God with Us”, and this is literally what Christians believe in the doctrine of the incarnation. Immanuel is a statement of the incarnation.

Now at the time of Isaiah, some scholars wonder Isaiah 9:6 refers to an actual child born at that time actually named Immanuel. This follows a common pattern in the old testament of circular or repeated typology and fullfillement of prophecy. The first fullfillement was proximate and literally a child named Immanuel. This kid showed God had not forgotten them in that moment, but this kid didn’t fill most of the prophecy. The complete fullfillement was later in Jesus and literally God in human form, God with us.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/79 "2019-06-28T17:34:22Z")

</div>

Since we are talking about Jesus being God, we are talking about the government, the governing, of the universe, and the immaterial ‘universe’, as well. So, yeah, the government is upon his shoulders. Just because you don’t like his governing and his judgment, and consider that reason to reject him… well, that’s another issue.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/80 "2019-06-28T17:35:49Z")

</div>

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> Since we are talking about Jesus being God, we are talking about the government, the governing, of the universe, and the immaterial ‘universe’, as well.

That’s not what was described in the prophecies.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/81 "2019-06-28T17:37:57Z")

</div>

Prophecy is both figurative and literal. Much of it is written in poetic form, which lets us know that we should expect some metaphors.

[Previous page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806.md?page=3)

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806.md?page=5)