# Did Jesus Fulfill Messianic Prophecies?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Theology\
**Created:** [June 27, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806 "2019-06-27T16:56:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 7

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/123 "2019-06-28T21:20:43Z")

</div>

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> Having rejected Jesus, they would

Do you have any evidence that this is the reason for their interpretation of scripture?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/124 "2019-06-28T21:20:56Z")

</div>

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Let me see if we have this straight:
> 
> In the Jewish tradition as recounted in the OT, there was a belief that there would someday come a Messiah, and this person would be referred to as “Immanuel.”
> 
> Then Jesus came along and led a group of Jewish followers. Some of them came to believe he was this Messiah, and started calling him “Immanuel.”

Close. No-one has produced anything that suggests Jesus was ever called “Immanuel” until long after he was crucified.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/125 "2019-06-28T21:23:41Z")

</div>

OK, but even if that was the “prophecy”, I think the problems are pretty obvious, or should be.

It’s like if I predict the winner of the Super Bowl in the year 2032 will be the team that scores more points.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/126 "2019-06-28T21:23:46Z")

</div>

For those interested, there is a well written article on the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 here:

[https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/](https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/)

It can be a bit polemic in parts, but overall it has a well laid out argument.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/127 "2019-06-28T21:28:21Z")

</div>

His people, orthodox Christians, have corporately long recognized the trinitarian nature of Jesus, the Christ, and that he was and is ‘God with us’ (i.e., Emmanuel). His mother, ‘[pondering these things in her heart](https://biblehub.com/luke/2-19.htm)’, undoubtedly did too.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/128 "2019-06-28T21:31:30Z")

</div>

That is not implicit? They weren’t Christians.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/129 "2019-06-28T21:37:17Z")

</div>

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> They weren’t Christians.

You are implying that Jewish scholars have no other reason for interpreting Isaiah 53 as they do other than their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. This needs a bit more support.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/130 "2019-06-28T22:11:56Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> For those interested, there is a well written article on the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53 here:
> 
> [Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 - Outreach Judaism](https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/)
> 
> It can be a bit polemic in parts, but overall it has a well laid out argument.

Once again a tautaological reference :).

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/131 "2019-06-28T22:56:31Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> This needs a bit more support.

Not a big enough bit to be worth any effort. 🙂 It’s implicit. It they had accepted Jesus, then they would not have interpreted it that way.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/132 "2019-06-28T23:05:07Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> You are implying that Jewish scholars have no other reason for interpreting Isaiah 53 as they do other than their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. This needs a bit more support.

Read the passage carefully yourself. Can you make a case based on the text? How does a country get killed and come back to life?

Here is a piece of the Messianic Jewish interpretation.

> ## The Servant is not Israel
> 
> Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzchaki, 1040-1105) and some of the later rabbis, though, interpreted the passage as referring to Israel. They knew that the older interpretations referred it to Messiah. However, Rashi lived at a time when a degenerate medieval distortion of Christianity was practiced. He wanted to preserve the Jewish people from accepting such a faith and, although his intentions were sincere, other prominent Jewish rabbis and leaders realized the inconsistencies of Rashi’s interpretation. They presented a threefold objection to his innovation. First, they showed the consensus of ancient opinion. Secondly, they pointed out that the text is in the singular. Thirdly, they noted verse eight. This verse presented an insurmountable difficulty to those who interpreted this passage as referring to Israel. It reads:
> 
> > He was taken away from rule and from judgment; and his life who shall recount? for he was cut off out of the land of the living; through the transgressions of my people was he stricken.
> 
> Were the Jewish people, God forbid, ever cut off out of the land of the living? No! In [Jeremiah 31:35-37](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jer%2031.35-37), God promised that we will exist forever. We are proud that Am Yisrael Chai—”The people of Israel are much alive.” Likewise, it is impossible to say that Israel suffered for the transgressions of “my people,” which clearly means Isaiah’s people. Surely Isaiah’s people are not the Gentiles, but the Jews.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/133 "2019-06-28T23:13:09Z")

</div>

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> Not a big enough bit to be worth any effort. 🙂 It’s implicit

The fact they had to distort it is telling. The Muslim’s who insist that the NT was written around this passage is also telling.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![vjtorley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e36b37/32.png) [@vjtorley](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/vjtorley)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/134 "2019-06-29T15:01:19Z")

</div>

Forget about who the Servant is, for the moment. Just ask yourself this: is there anything in Isaiah 52 and 53 which indicates unambiguously that the Servant is _crucified_? (Yes, there’s a reference to the Servant being pierced, but there’s also a reference to him being crushed - and in any case, “pierced” could refer to a wound inflicted either by a spear or by nails or by a dagger.)

Also, how do Christians account for verses which describe the Servant as having an appearance “so marred, beyond human semblance,” or the statement that “King **s** [plural] shall shut their mouths because of him”?

Finally, are you aware of how [Jews](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm) translate Isaiah 9:5?

> For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

In other words, the child isn’t called “the mighty God, the everlasting Father,” but simply “prince of peace.”

These are supposed to be the _clearest_ prophecies of Jesus as the Messiah. I submit that any Messianic reference can be understood only in retrospect, by people who have converted to Christianity.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/135 "2019-06-29T15:28:12Z")

</div>

> [@vjtorley](#):
>
> These are supposed to be the _clearest_ prophecies of Jesus as the Messiah. I submit that any Messianic reference can be understood only in retrospect, by people who have converted to Christianity.

Messianic Jews believe this is a description of the Messiah Jesus. Also many Jewish Rabbi’s in history have claimed it as a Messianic prophecy.

You need to integrate all the prophecies starting with Genesis. Why was Gods requested sacrifice of Abraham’s son so significant to the whole story?

Who else fits the description in 53 better than Jesus? How would this possibly be staged?

Have you studied Daniel 9?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/136 "2019-06-29T15:31:35Z")

</div>

> [@vjtorley](#):
>
> Finally, are you aware of how [Jews](https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm) translate Isaiah 9:5?

There are tools to translate now and you can survey the Dead Sea Scrolls which have Isaiah well preserved.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/137 "2019-06-29T15:47:56Z")

</div>

> [@vjtorley](#):
>
> For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, “the prince of peace.”

What source is this from?  
Here is the Jewish Tanakh 1917

> [**5**](https://biblehub.com/isaiah/9-6.htm)For a child is born unto us,
> 
> A son is given unto us;
> 
> And the government is upon his shoulder;
> 
> And his name is called
> 
> [a](https://biblehub.com/jps/isaiah/9.htm#ftn)Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/138 "2019-07-01T14:45:05Z")

</div>

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> It they had accepted Jesus, then they would not have interpreted it that way.

You are assuming that they didn’t interpret the verses this way before Jesus.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/139 "2019-07-01T14:48:18Z")

</div>

> [@colewd](#):
>
> Read the passage carefully yourself. Can you make a case based on the text? How does a country get killed and come back to life?

Wars killed the Hebrew people who lost their land, and the story is about those people reclaiming those lands.

> [@](#):
>
> Therefore, Isaiah 53:8 concludes with their stunning confession, “for the transgressions of my people [the gentile nations] they [the Jews]were stricken.” The fact that the servant is spoken of in the third person, plural לָמוֹ _(lamo)_ illustrates beyond doubt that the servant is a nation rather than a single individual.
> 
> The rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 fits in seamlessly with its surrounding chapters which all clearly depict the nation of Israel as “despised, afflicted” (54:6-11), and oppressed “without cause” (52:4) at the hands of the gentile nations.
> 
> According to the most ancient rabbinic commentaries, the identification of Israel as God’s servant is evident throughout the four Servant Songs.[5](https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/#fn5-2891) As such, rabbinic sources from the Talmudic period identify the servant of Isaiah 53 in the plain sense as the Jewish people, consistent with the previous three Servant Songs.  
> [Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 - Outreach Judaism](https://outreachjudaism.org/gods-suffering-servant-isaiah-53/)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/140 "2019-07-01T15:20:04Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Wars killed the Hebrew people who lost their land, and the story is about those people reclaiming those lands.

There is no way to make this case other than a force fit. Isaiah clearly says **he** suffered for **our** transgressions.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/141 "2019-07-01T15:32:18Z")

</div>

> [@colewd](#):
>
> There is no way to make this case other than a force fit. Isaiah clearly says **he** suffered for **our** transgressions

Have you heard of metaphors?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806/142 "2019-07-01T15:43:21Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Have you heard of metaphors?

They are not used to deceive the reader. Re read the whole passage. Israel is in there but separate from the servant being described. The writer, Isaiah, is part of the chosen people.

This passage describes Christ and that is why the Jews had to spin this just as they spun Isaiah 9.6.

[Previous page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806.md?page=6)

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-jesus-fulfill-messianic-prophecies/6806.md?page=8)