# Did Moses Write the Pentateuch?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-moses-write-the-pentateuch/11458>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Tags:** Theology\
**Created:** [August 18, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-moses-write-the-pentateuch/11458 "2020-08-18T16:02:08Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Showing post:** 111

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [February 16, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-moses-write-the-pentateuch/11458/111 "2023-02-16T23:04:07Z")

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> [@OneGod](#):
>
> > [@Tim](#):
> >
> > So we have **evidence** that the ancient Israelites are genetically and linguistically closely tied to the Levant,
> 
> Surely. The Hebrews lived in the Levant after the Exodus and intermarried. So this is expected. Question is how did R-M124 get in?

1. The level of genetic similarity between Jews, Canaanites and Leventine Arabs is sufficiently high to indicate that it is **basal, not due to intermarriage.** (“These populations are consistent with having 50% or more of their ancestry from people related to groups who lived in the Bronze Age Levant and the Chalcolithic Zagros.”)

2. R-M124 is very low among Ashkenazi Jews. This indicates that R-M124 is **not basal** in the Jewish population. (See my [previous post](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/about-thomas-nagel/15760/24) giving evidence for this.)

3. Among non-Ashkenazi Jews, R-M124 is far less common within the priesthood (“Cohanim”) than outside it. As the priesthood would be less likely to inter-marry than other Jews, this indicates that **it is R-M124 that entered _some_ Jewish populations by intermarriage.** (Evidence in same post.)

4. There are pockets of high R-M124 population scattered throughout Southwest Asia overlapping post-diaspora Jewish populations, meaning that we don’t need to further East, or further back in time, to explain the _very limited_ ingress of R-M124 into _some_ Jewish populations. [[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M124#West_Asia)

5. We have been presented **no evidence** of R-M124 in the _ancient_ Indus Valley, and only a survey based on an _extremely small sample_ from one modern population in Bihar (which is part of the Ganges watershed, **not the Indus** ) – making this survey _unreliable_.

It can therefore be seen that **R-M124 is a complete red herring** – so I wish you’d stop harping on about it.

1. You have completely **failed** to even attempt to explain why the ancient Israelites spoke Hebrew, a **Leventine** language, **unrelated to the languages spoken in the ancient Indus valley**.

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> The evidence you say is good. Indus is better.

Indus is **completely awful!**

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> 1] Egypt was known as KMT before 13c BCE. No place named Misr ever. Indus had the city named Mathura in literature from 2000 BCE.

This is **not evidence** – it is just three _unrelated_ statements, of questionable accuracy.

I would note:

1. Misr is the [Arabic word for Egypt](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B1). Given that Hebrew (“Mizraim”) and Arabic (“Misr”) are very closely related languages, this should not be surprising.

2. Current day Mathura is hundreds of kilometers from the Indus Valley, and has existed for thousands of years.

3. Mathura only has one letter in common with either Misr or Mizraim. This is **no evidence whatsoever** that they are the same place.

Thus, this is **not evidence** linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> 2] Pharaoh title could be redacted. In any case it is weak circumstantial evidence.

Better than _no substantive evidence at all_. This is _likewise_ **not evidence** linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> 3] Multiple geographical problems. 3a] Egypt no parting of the sea. Indus: Obstruction of Indus River by mud volcano. 3b] Egypt No volcano at Sinai. Indus Taftan. 3c] No need to go to Aqaba, the third Yam Suf. The third Yam suf would be Shatt al-Arab.

1. This is _easily explained_ by the fact that the Exodus narrative is widely regarded as being **legendary NOT historical** – a point you have **completely failed to address!**

2. [Addendum] Even if the Exodus narrative is not _wholly_ legendary, the fact that it was written several centuries after its purported events leave it open to having ahistorical elements enter into the narrative. I would note that insisting that “Pharaoh” is an ahistorical element, but that the volcano, etc _are_ historical is a fallacious [Special Pleading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading).

3. Are you now equating the Red Sea with the Indus River? Ludicrous!

4. There are volcanoes all over the Medditeranean and Southwest Asia – no need to go as far east as the Indus.

5. There are likewise [candidates for “Yam suf”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yam_Suph#Translation_and_location) far closer.

This is _likewise_ **not evidence** linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> 4] No character parallel to Moses in Egyptian literature.

1. _Again_, this is _easily explained_ by the fact that the Exodus narrative is widely regarded as being **legendary NOT historical.**

2. In any case, this claim is **false** , as I have already explained:

> [@Tim](#):
>
> > [@OneGod](#):
> >
> > No character parallel to Moses in Egyptian literature.
> 
> [Osarseph](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osarseph)?
> 
> Also:
> 
> > Other Egyptian figures which have been postulated as candidates for a historical Moses-like figure include the princes [Ahmose-ankh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose-ankh) and [Ramose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramose_(prince)), who were sons of pharaoh [Ahmose I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I), or a figure associated with the family of pharaoh [Thutmose III](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thutmose_III).[[92]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-95)[[93]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-96) Israel Knohl has proposed to identify Moses with [Irsu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irsu), a [Shasu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu) who, according to [Papyrus Harris I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Harris_I) and the Elephantine Stele, took power in Egypt with the support of “Asiatics” (people from the [Levant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant)) after the death of Queen [Twosret](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twosret); after coming to power, Irsu and his supporters disrupted Egyptian rituals, “treating the gods like the people” and halting offerings to the Egyptian deities. They were eventually defeated and expelled by the new Pharaoh [Setnakhte](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setnakhte) and, while fleeing, they abandoned large quantities of gold and silver they had stolen from the temples.[[94]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#cite_note-97) [[Wikipedia]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses#Historicity)

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> Krishna is parallel.

And as I’ve explained before legendary parallels are commonplace and thus **absolutely worthless** as evidence.

This is _likewise_ **not evidence** linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.

> [@OneGod](#):
>
> The name Mitsrayim was (wrongly) used for ancient land of Indus Valley; and (rightly) used for post-Exodus Egypt. It is, therefore, correct to use that name in the post-Exodus context.

Given (i) we have **no evidence** that the Exodus happened, there is likewise no evidence that “post-Exodus Egypt” is named any different from pre-Exodus Egypt, and (ii) we likewise have **no evidence** that it was _ever_ “used for ancient land of Indus Valley” (rightly or wrongly), this is all just so much fact-free hand-waving.

I would conclude by saying that you have **no evidence whatsoever** linking “Mizraim” with the Indus Valley. It is all just wishful thinking on your part.

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_[View the full topic](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/did-moses-write-the-pentateuch/11458)._