# Do all deer share a common ancestor?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Science\
**Created:** [May 22, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040 "2023-05-22T23:44:35Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 39

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/766 "2023-08-17T18:46:22Z")

</div>

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> I take issue with that. I think Bill long ago decided this isn’t about truth so he’ll basically just lie to keep the appearance of debate going.

That’s certainly the strategy the DI follows. The question, then, is whether BIll has been deceived by them, or has simply learned from them.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> Materialist ideology maybe making it difficult to imagine a different result than deer common ancestry.

It’s very easy to imagine such a “result”. Some omnipotent being decides, just for shits and giggles, to create a bunch of ungulates that give every appearance, down to the molecular level, of being descended from a common ancestor. Could happen, sure, if the only limitation on what “could” happen is that it be logically coherent.

The question is whether the evidence favours such a result, or whether there is another result that can more parsimoniously account for the evidence.

The answer should be obvious.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/767 "2023-08-17T19:07:32Z")

</div>

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> It’s very easy to imagine such a “result”. Some omnipotent being decides, just for shits and giggles, to create a bunch of ungulates that give every appearance, down to the molecular level, of being descended from a common ancestor. Could happen, sure, if the only limitation on what “could” happen is that it be logically coherent.
> 
> The question is whether the evidence favours such a result, or whether there is another result that can more parsimoniously account for the evidence.

Well by definition an omnipotent designer that expends considerable effort making it look like common descent, has left us with all we need to infer common descent and none for separate origins. We can hardly be blamed for taking the hint.

True enough, if all the evidence really is fake and planted to deceive us by TheInvisibleDesignerTM, then we’ve been misled and common descent is ultimately false. But we are not at fault for going with what the evidence shows. Perhaps this is where Bills ultimate disagreement lies. It’s the-evidence-be-damned position of AIG and so on.

 ![creationism](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/3X/8/4/8432617bbf36ca3e58af720de63beaa15d5ee1db.png)  
I will never stop thinking people who can accept such statements have lost their minds.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [August 17, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/768 "2023-08-17T19:41:37Z")

</div>

Never forget the Wedge Document. The whole game is given up there. The objective is replace a society run on the basis of reason and consensus with one under the rule of religious authority, conservative Evangelical Christian authority to be precise. The really pathetic part is that Bill and his ilk think such a society would work to their benefit. Just like all those fools who had dreams of glory and power as they helped Trump regain his throne. Look where that got them.

But I digress.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 8:14am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/769 "2023-08-18T08:14:00Z")

</div>

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Never forget the Wedge Document. The whole game is given up there. The objective is replace a society run on the basis of reason and consensus with one under the rule of religious authority, conservative Evangelical Christian authority to be precise. The really pathetic part is that Bill and his ilk think such a society would work to their benefit. Just like all those fools who had dreams of glory and power as they helped Trump regain his throne. Look where that got them.

I’m reminded of those who champion limits on having children, removal of minimum wages, or slavery - who never consider that it might be them who become penniless childless slaves.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 1:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/770 "2023-08-18T13:18:07Z")

</div>

> [@Giltil](#):
>
> The topic being closely related, I sincerely thought it could be discussed in this thread.

So, do all deer share a common ancestor? What do you think?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/771 "2023-08-18T16:49:34Z")

</div>

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> So, do all deer share a common ancestor? What do you think?

I would say yes, most probably. But I have to say that I didn’t put much thought in this issue. For exemple if I was asked to offer evidence for it right now, I would have some trouble.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 4:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/772 "2023-08-18T16:57:31Z")

</div>

> [@Giltil](#):
>
> I would say yes, most probably. But I have to say that I didn’t put much thought in this issue. For exemple if I was asked to offer evidence for it right now, I would have some trouble.

So many questions present themselves. Why haven’t you thought about it? Isn’t this a subject you’re interested in? Not deer, specifically, but the issue of what, if separately created kinds exist, they might be and how we would recognize them. Bill has shown himself incapable of thinking about that, but can you do any better?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/773 "2023-08-18T17:30:45Z")

</div>

It is indeed a subject I am interested in. I’ve even bought a book you’ve recommended me on the subject some years ago. Unfortunately, I didn’t find the time to study it yet. Hope this will change in the not to far futur. But please consider that I am not hostile to the idea of CD. I’ve had an exchange on that topic with Gpuccio some years ago at UD that resulted in a shift of my position from being agnostic regarding CD to being more supportive. You’ve also contributed to this shift.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 5:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/774 "2023-08-18T17:32:08Z")

</div>

So you have turned into a theistic evolutionist of some sort, at least provisionally?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 5:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/775 "2023-08-18T17:41:06Z")

</div>

I’am not sure what you mean exactly by theistic evolutionist. What I can tell you is that I have no objection right now to CD. So if evolution means CD, I have no objection to evolution. But if evolution means a blind, unpurposeful process, then I am not an evolutionist.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 5:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/776 "2023-08-18T17:53:20Z")

</div>

Would it be fair to say that your position is perhaps more along the lines of Behe’s, who accept common descent, but think certain design interventions are required for things like the bacterial flagellum, blood clotting cascade, and so on?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 6:04pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/777 "2023-08-18T18:04:08Z")

</div>

Yes, that would be fair, provisionally.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/778 "2023-08-18T18:08:20Z")

</div>

> [@Giltil](#):
>
> I’am not sure what you mean exactly by theistic evolutionist.

Nobody is. Everyone means something different by it. But I mean what you have described for yourself and what Behe has expressed, though he rejects the term.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [August 18, 2023, 11:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/779 "2023-08-18T23:39:33Z")

</div>

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> But I mean what you have described for yourself and what Behe has expressed, though he rejects the term.

Does anybody prominent who accepts Common Descent, but stipulates the necessity of some form of explicit designer intervention, accept the label “Theistic Evolutionist”?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/780 "2023-08-19T00:56:52Z")

</div>

> [@Tim](#):
>
> Does anybody prominent who accepts Common Descent, but stipulates the necessity of some form of explicit designer intervention, accept the label “Theistic Evolutionist”?

I don’t know. I tend not to keep track of most self-assigned labels. But do such people fit the criteria for that label? Unfortunately, the criteria aren’t clear. Don’t know what label to use or whether anyone would accept it. “IDer” is clearly inadequate, as it’s a big tent that covers YECs too.

@Giltil, what label would you go with for yourself?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/781 "2023-08-19T01:15:15Z")

</div>

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> But do such people fit the criteria for that label?

I think it is unambiguous that Behe and the like might be considered a “Theistic Descentist” (if such a label existed), but that is not, I would suggest, the same thing as a “Theistic Evolutionist”.

I would probably define an “Evolutionist” as somebody who fully accepts the Theory of Evolution, and a “Theistic Evolutionist” as one who does so within a Theistic worldview – one that likely assumes that the universe was created by a deity (thus opening the door for cosmic fine-tuning arguments) and some form of [Divine Providence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_providence), but nothing that conflicts with this theory.

I would suggest that “stipulat[ing] the necessity of some form of explicit designer intervention” _would_ conflict with that theory, so would not classify anybody who makes that stipulation an “Evolutionist” or a “Theistic Evolutionist”.

Others may of course define “Evolutionist”, and thus “Theistic Evolutionist”, differently.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![RonSewell](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ronsewell/32/6194_2.png) [@RonSewell](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/RonSewell)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2023, 4:56am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/782 "2023-08-19T04:56:00Z")

</div>

> [@Tim](#):
>
> I would probably define an “Evolutionist” as somebody who fully accepts the Theory of Evolution, and a “Theistic Evolutionist” as one who does so within a Theistic worldview – one that likely assumes that the universe was created by a deity (thus opening the door for cosmic fine-tuning arguments) and some form of [Divine Providence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_providence), but nothing that conflicts with this theory.

This would be close to my position, although I find the label a bit awkward, like “Theistic Meteorologist”, or “Theistic Engineer”.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2023, 5:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/783 "2023-08-19T05:41:15Z")

</div>

> [@RonSewell](#):
>
> This would be close to my position, although I find the label a bit awkward, like “Theistic Meteorologist”, or “Theistic Engineer”.

They may be a bit awkward, but I could see conceivable worlds where they might each become necessary.

A world where some theists insist that thunderstorms cannot happen without the intervention of Thor, might necessitate the term "Theistic Meteorologist”, for theists who fully accept the scientific explanation of weather.

Likewise, a world where some theists claim that a bridge would fall over without a prayer engraved into it might necessitate the term "Theistic Engineer”.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2023, 7:09am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/784 "2023-08-19T07:09:21Z")

</div>

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> @Giltil, what label would you go with for yourself?

Using Tim’s label, why not « IDer descentist »?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [August 19, 2023, 7:29am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040/785 "2023-08-19T07:29:03Z")

</div>

> [@Giltil](#):
>
> Using Tim’s label, why not « IDer descentist »?

I think that might be less clunky if turned around the other way, to “Descentist ID advocate” (as “Descentist” would seem to make a less clunky adjective than “IDer”).

Admittedly, the contrary position within ID would then be “Special Creationist ID advocate”, which is still clunky (but I don’t think can be easily declunkified).

[Previous page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040.md?page=38)

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/do-all-deer-share-a-common-ancestor/16040.md?page=40)