# Friendly Atheist on "Atheist Role Playing" Apologetics

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Tags:** Communication\
**Created:** [February 1, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193 "2019-02-01T03:14:33Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![structureoftruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@structureoftruth](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/structureoftruth)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/1 "2019-02-01T03:14:33Z")

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[A blog post at Stand to Reason](https://www.str.org/blog/response-hemant-mehtas-post-about-stand-reasons-email) responds to a post about them by the “Friendly Atheist,” who, I think, doesn’t really live up well to his chosen moniker. But kudos to STR for their civil response to his uncharitable assumption about their method. @Patrick has linked to the Friendly Atheist blog before on these forums, so it might be of interest to some of you.

What do you think of STR’s “atheist roleplay” model discussed in this post?

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**Author:** ![pevaquark](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pevaquark/32/2324_2.png) [@pevaquark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/pevaquark)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/2 "2019-02-01T03:25:37Z")

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I get the idea. STR has the intellectual upperhand and aren’t afraid of real atheists. Hemant made a strawman but definitely couldn’t stand up to the true apologists and defenders of the faith.

But in all seriousness, what does it mean if the Friendly Atheist was really mistaken or wrong on this particular issue? Does that discount what @Patrick has said at other points or shared from this particular blogger? Does it mean that all of those ideas can be easily dismissed? I think this is actually an interesting question where lets say I disagree with @swamidass on some things, it would be silly for me to dismiss everything he says.

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**Author:** ![structureoftruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@structureoftruth](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/structureoftruth)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/3 "2019-02-01T03:35:55Z")

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Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that this somehow discredits everything the Friendly Atheist writes. I just thought it was incongruous with his blog’s title, is all.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:38am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/4 "2019-02-01T03:38:14Z")

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> [@structureoftruth](#):
>
> What do you think of STR’s “atheist roleplay” model discussed in this post?

I would like to be volunteer atheist to STR. See if the kids can stump me. It would be fun.

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/5 "2019-02-01T03:49:59Z")

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Hemant’s main point was that they should have brought in a real atheist instead of a pretend one. And I’m inclined to agree with him on that.

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**Author:** ![structureoftruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@structureoftruth](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/structureoftruth)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:03am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/6 "2019-02-01T04:03:10Z")

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@nwrickert Perhaps. Though consider the goal of the exercise is both to expose the students to the other viewpoint, and to help the students be able to respond to challenges to their faith. Ideally they’d want someone who is on board with both those goals - and while a real atheist would be fine with the first goal, I would find it somewhat strange for them to be committed to the second.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:12am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/7 "2019-02-01T04:12:20Z")

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I kinda agree with McDowell on this:

> [@Sean McDowell and the Friendly Atheist](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/sean-mcdowell-and-the-friendly-atheist/1500/1):
>
> A friend of mine, Dr. Sean McDowell, was in a dialogue with the Friendly Atheist on Friday.
> 
> > But for now, I think this post may be more interesting and productive. Rather than leading with critique, I would rather lead with an attempt to learn and find common ground. So, here are three takeaways for the church from my interaction with Hemant:
> 
> Sean identifies three great places of common ground:
> 
> > **1. Love your kids, even if they disagree with you.**
> 
> > **2. Atheists Feel Under Attack by Religion**.
> 
> > **3. Be willing to dialogue with opposing viewpoints**.
> 
> This last one is important to me too. This is what Sean writes:
> 
> > Hemant encourages churches to hold dialogues on opposing viewpoints with equal representation. Why is this important? He writes, “Because it shows outsiders that Christians are confident in their beliefs, so much so that they’re willing to present their teachings in a setting where the other side of the argument is also presented.” Yes, _Yes_ , YES!

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:58am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/8 "2019-02-01T04:58:59Z")

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> [@structureoftruth](#):
>
> Ideally they’d want someone who is on board with both those goals - and while a real atheist would be fine with the first goal, I would find it somewhat strange for them to be committed to the second.

So don’t pick any old atheist. Pick one suitable for the task. I’m sure that there are plenty of them. And there are also quite a few who are “angry atheists” and would be unsuitable.

Don’t automatically assume that every atheist is of the “angry atheist” kind.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 5:09am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/9 "2019-02-01T05:09:39Z")

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> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> > Ideally they’d want someone who is on board with both those goals - and while a real atheist would be fine with the first goal, I would find it somewhat strange for them to be committed to the second.
> 
> So don’t pick any old atheist. Pick one suitable for the task. I’m sure that there are plenty of them. And there are also quite a few who are “angry atheists” and would be unsuitable.

I nominate @nwrickert, @John_Dalton, @Dan_Eastwood, @T_aquaticus, and @patrick. But @patrick needs a handler of some sort… 🕶.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 5:11am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/10 "2019-02-01T05:11:16Z")

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Hey, what’s wrong with me?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 5:12am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/11 "2019-02-01T05:12:20Z")

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Okay @John_Harshman too, but we need put a “grumpy” warning sticker on your shoulder 😄.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/12 "2019-02-01T16:43:37Z")

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> [@structureoftruth](#):
>
> Though consider the goal of the exercise is both to expose the students to the other viewpoint, and to help the students be able to respond to challenges to their faith. Ideally they’d want someone who is on board with both those goals - and while a real atheist would be fine with the first goal, I would find it somewhat strange for them to be committed to the second.

I don’t think that you really fathom how the country has changed. Over 1/3 of the population are Nones and nearly half of millenials. So finding an atheist is simple, he/she is standing right next to you in school (secular), at work, at the supermarket. Time to accept this.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/13 "2019-02-01T16:45:00Z")

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> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> So don’t pick any old atheist. Pick one suitable for the task. I’m sure that there are plenty of them. And there are also quite a few who are “angry atheists” and would be unsuitable.
> 
> Don’t automatically assume that every atheist is of the “angry atheist” kind.

Pick a random person under 35. 50/50 chance he/she is a None.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/14 "2019-02-01T16:46:02Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> But @patrick needs a handler of some sort… 🕶.

I need no handler. Kids love me. 🕶 Note that I call anyone under 45 a kid, male or female.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/15 "2019-02-01T17:03:13Z")

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> [@structureoftruth](#):
>
> Perhaps. Though consider the goal of the exercise is both to expose the students to the other viewpoint, and to help the students be able to respond to challenges to their faith. Ideally they’d want someone who is on board with both those goals - and while a real atheist would be fine with the first goal, I would find it somewhat strange for them to be committed to the second.

The real question is why atheism would challenge faith based beliefs to begin with. Atheism could largely be described as a lack of faith when it comes to questions about deities. People lacking faith shouldn’t impact those who choose to have faith.

There is something to be said for rejecting bad apologetics, but I think it ultimately boils down to the personal choice of having faith in religious tenets.

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**Author:** ![structureoftruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@structureoftruth](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/structureoftruth)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/16 "2019-02-01T20:10:34Z")

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I did not assume that, @nwrickert. My assumption was more that most (not all) atheists would not really be interested in helping Christian teenagers defend their faith from objections.

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**Author:** ![structureoftruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@structureoftruth](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/structureoftruth)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 8:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/17 "2019-02-01T20:22:43Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> The real question is why atheism would challenge faith based beliefs to begin with. Atheism could largely be described as a lack of faith when it comes to questions about deities. People lacking faith shouldn’t impact those who choose to have faith.

This is not about people’s lack of faith somehow affecting people having faith. This is about reasons to believe that Christianity is true, or not. It is about learning why, and learning how to articulate, the reasons one has for being a Christian. And, having good reasons rather than bad ones.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/18 "2019-02-01T20:35:34Z")

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> [@structureoftruth](#):
>
> This is not about people’s lack of faith somehow affecting people having faith. This is about reasons to believe that Christianity is true, or not. It is about learning why, and learning how to articulate, the reasons one has for being a Christian. And, having good reasons rather than bad ones.

Fair enough. In this scenario, the atheist could fill the role of the independent skeptic, someone who isn’t emotionally invested in the Christian faith and is therefore not already influenced by potentially poor apologetic arguments. Preferably, your model atheist would also need to be someone who isn’t emotionally invested in proving Christianity false.

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/19 "2019-02-01T22:25:56Z")

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> [@structureoftruth](#):
>
> My assumption was more that most (not all) atheists would not really be interested in helping Christian teenagers defend their faith from objections.

They would be interested in having Christians better understand them. They frequently hear Christians making false assertions about athiests. And educating youth can be part of that.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/friendly-atheist-on-atheist-role-playing-apologetics/4193/20 "2019-02-01T22:35:30Z")

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> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> They would be interested in having Christians better understand them. They frequently hear Christians making false assertions about athiests. And educating youth can be part of that.

That’s a good point as well. From my personal experience, I have heard some really terrible opening lines from Christians who are witnessing to me. Something that sounds more like a sales pitch than an honest personal belief is a big turnoff.

I would say that many atheists are interested in finding a bridge between all of us, even if all it means is that we run into fewer bad arguments.