# Fuzzy definitions of human: YEC and evolutionary science

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [July 24, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021 "2019-07-24T02:22:45Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/1 "2019-07-24T02:22:45Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/14):
>
> From your understanding what are the current scientific claims of evolution as a whole?

> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/16):
>
> I think a good starting point is common descent of humans with the great apes.

How about decent of humans from other “humans”? i.e. Neanderthals, Denisovians, and whatever else they are finding according to @Patrick’s recent link. I think the “what’s a human?” question is getting so muddied genetically that it may be an interesting way to talk to people about evolution without getting too “crazy”.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/2 "2019-07-24T02:32:45Z")

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Yup. This is a key point. The science of origins unsettled our intuition of how we define “human.”

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:26am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/3 "2019-07-24T10:26:29Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/18):
>
> How about decent of humans from other “humans”? i.e. Neanderthals, Denisovians, and whatever else they are finding according to @Patrick’s recent link.

Nah, Creation Science easily deals with that. They’re all just humans. Or, uh, are they apes? Well, whatever, the Creation Scientists all know which is which.

 ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/a/a748834b0d9032c315002381a25aaeb77d6aaa89.jpeg)

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/4 "2019-07-24T10:41:38Z")

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Great table. Reference?

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:45am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/5 "2019-07-24T10:45:55Z")

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And there is also the ol’ creationist trope which explained such fossils with: “The so-called Homo \_\_\_\_ species was actually nothing but a Homo sapiens with a bad case of arthritis/gout/microcephaly/etc.”

That was the old standby formula I remember from “creation science” speakers back in the 1960’s.

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**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 12:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/6 "2019-07-24T12:23:01Z")

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So that table goes to _Homo erectus_, anybody know of something similar for the closer relatives like Neanderthals, Denisovians, or _Homo heidelbergensis_? It could be interesting if the YECs got it sort of right, in that they took a broader definition of “human” out of necessity, but it could turn out to be more true than people thought in terms of interbreeding, etc.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/7 "2019-07-24T13:30:05Z")

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The scientific community has a broader definition of human to include all of the Genus Homo, perhaps even to Australopithecus and Ardipithecus.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/8 "2019-07-24T13:59:49Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/23):
>
> Great table. Reference?

It’s from this [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html)

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/9 "2019-07-24T14:02:19Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/25):
>
> So that table goes to _Homo erectus_ , anybody know of something similar for the closer relatives like Neanderthals, Denisovians, or _Homo heidelbergensis_ ? It could be interesting if the YECs got it sort of right, in that they took a broader definition of “human” out of necessity, but it could turn out to be more true than people thought in terms of interbreeding, etc.

Here’s [a recent one for Homo naledi](https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2015/11/20/bones-of-contention-iv-a-yec-homo-naledi-fossil-status-scorecard/):

 ![homo-naledi-fossils-yec-scorecard1](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/0/0b883b7068d0f4e82eb4bddb11c898e9ae30ad0e.jpeg) (@Joel_Duff)

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/10 "2019-07-24T16:29:07Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/26):
>
> The scientific community has a broader definition of human

The scientific community has no definition of “human”.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/11 "2019-07-24T16:31:49Z")

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Question about this table. When the age of the fossils is given as “\<4500 years post-Noahic flood population”, doesn’t that just mean “earlier than the present”?

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/12 "2019-07-24T16:45:06Z")

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I think it just means it’s supposed to be from some population that lived after Noah’s flood in ~6000 year YEC chronology. So, younger than the flood.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/13 "2019-07-24T16:58:40Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/31):
>
> So, younger than the flood.

A bold assessment indeed. Creationist dating is a powerful method for determining the ages of fossils.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/14 "2019-07-24T17:08:00Z")

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Compressing the entire geological record into 6000 years, IIRC the entire age of the dinosaurs lasted a few minutes back in the 1970s.

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**Author:** ![Joel\_Duff](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/joel_duff/32/159_2.png) [@Joel\_Duff](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Joel_Duff)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/15 "2019-07-24T17:15:24Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/32):
>
> > [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/31):
> >
> > So, younger than the flood.
> 
> A bold assessment indeed. Creationist dating is a powerful method for determining the ages of fossils.

Yes, that is what is meant. The “truth” is that all human fossils are post-Flood and thus are descendants of Noah’s family. So for each fossil they feel compelled to put them into one of two baskets “human” or “fully ape” the latter being a descendant of the pair of archeobarimin (ark ancestor) apes. Most YECs now believe that chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans are the same “kind” and therefore have a common ancestor and those other “human-like” fossils that are NOT humans are just variations of the “ape kind.”

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**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/16 "2019-07-24T17:18:24Z")

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Thanks @Joel_Duff, excellent talk at the ASA, by the way. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

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**Author:** ![Joel\_Duff](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/joel_duff/32/159_2.png) [@Joel\_Duff](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Joel_Duff)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/17 "2019-07-24T17:20:44Z")

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Thank you. I wish I had had more time at ASA to talk to so many great people. I was just in-and-out that morning.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/18 "2019-07-24T17:29:46Z")

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The correspondence of the Flood to the geologic column is another thing creationists can’t seem to agree on. Some of them put its end at the K/T boundary, some have put it at the end of the Paleozoic, and others put it as recently as the start of the Pleistocene.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/19 "2019-07-24T20:19:11Z")

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> [@Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/33):
>
> the entire age of the dinosaurs lasted a few minutes back in the 1970s.

Yes, but some of us survived until today. (We are classified as threatened but not extinct.)

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021/20 "2019-07-24T21:30:36Z")

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Hey! I identify with that!

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