# General YEC discussion

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [October 20, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302 "2019-10-20T01:32:58Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 11

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/204 "2019-10-23T21:19:36Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/386):
>
> Are you seriously suggesting that if I were to resurrect a fossil coelocanth and place it together with a modern version, they would be so far apart as to be unable to interbreed?

Almost certainly. Are you not aware of speciation being caused merely by separation of populations? There are even obvious genetic mechanisms by which this happens–a couple of inversions would likely be sufficient.

> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/386):
>
> Or that for some reason they would refuse to do so?

A few inversions (which are happening all the time) would be sufficient to leave the progeny missing large chunks of the parental chromosomes. Many would be expected to have occurred over millions of years. That would almost certainly be lethal to the progeny, _even if the parents were phenotypically identical to each other in every way._

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22042/figure/A2869/?report=objectonly](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22042/figure/A2869/?report=objectonly)

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/205 "2019-10-23T21:21:50Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/420):
>
> Co-authored with Dr. Carter.

In scientific publishing, all coauthors share responsibility for the accuracy of the paper.

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/206 "2019-10-23T21:33:48Z")

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I asked you to please keep this to one thread. As I said [there](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/historical-science-and-observational-science/8168/229), this article is not a peer-reviewed science paper in a journal, so your suggestion that I should know just as much about the topic as Dr. Carter is invalid. And I also do not accept your premise that a mistake has been made–only that you are claiming one was made on the Y axis of that figure.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/207 "2019-10-23T22:01:28Z")

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You are, incidentally, claiming that your interpretation of Genesis 1 is infallible.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 23, 2019, 10:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/208 "2019-10-23T22:14:25Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/423):
>
> And I also do not accept your premise that a mistake has been made–

It was not my premise; I am asking you questions to determine whether it was a mistake.

Please try to be more gracious and respond to actual quotes instead of falsely putting words in the mouths of others.

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**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/209 "2019-10-25T20:10:14Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/412):
>
> I am posting here on a forum primarily populated by old earthers and atheist skeptics. I never had any credibility here to start with, nor would I ever expect to have any among such a crowd. My arguments have never rested on any appeal to my own credibility.

I just wanted to point out, that despite disagreeing with @PDPrice on many particulars, I think he’s been pretty forthcoming when it comes to his background and lack of particular expertise in science. He often (probably to the chagrin of many of the biologists here) defers to authors and co-authors with relevant science backgrounds when pressed about details. I think for a non-expert those are good qualities to have. He also makes fairly coherent posts, which is also nice. I may disagree, but at least I can understand pretty clearly _what_ he’s saying.

@PDPrice, I think if you can hang in there and find ways to engage with people who disagree strongly, but still find common ground and good will, you may find your credibility increasing. You may not care, but I’ve seen it happen where people who start as complete “enemies” end up finding mutual understanding and “peace”.

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/210 "2019-10-25T20:17:43Z")

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I appreciate your sentiments very much. Thanks for posting.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:19am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/211 "2019-10-26T01:19:37Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/426):
>
> I just wanted to point out, that despite disagreeing with @PDPrice on many particulars, I think he’s been pretty forthcoming when it comes to his background and lack of particular expertise in science.

He was yesterday, not so much today.

> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/426):
>
> He often (probably to the chagrin of many of the biologists here) defers to authors and co-authors with relevant science backgrounds when pressed about details.

His coauthors do not have relevant science backgrounds, Jordan. That’s false. And it’s not really about “backgrounds,” it’s about _ **doing actual science and testing their hypotheses** _. They’ve quit.

> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/426):
>
> I think for a non-expert those are good qualities to have. He also makes fairly coherent posts, which is also nice. I may disagree, but at least I can understand pretty clearly _what_ he’s saying.

Is he saying that every H1N1 outbreak since 2009-10 is less virulent, and will be in the future?

If so, do you think that is true?

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/212 "2019-10-26T01:21:30Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/428):
>
> He was yesterday, not so much today.

No, nothing’s changed between yesterday and today. I still am only stating what I am getting from Ph.D. scientists and from peer-reviewed literature. I still, even today, am making no appeals to my own authority.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/213 "2019-10-26T01:25:32Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/429):
>
> No, nothing’s changed between yesterday and today.

Today you’re claiming to know more about population genetics than a population geneticist.

> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/429):
>
> I still am only stating what I am getting from Ph.D. scientists and from peer-reviewed literature.

1. A Ph.D. isn’t enough. Expertise comes from experience. You don’t have any, and you only get what you get from scientists with whom you agree on YEC.
2. You’re grossly misrepresenting the evidence in the peer-reviewed literature. This is not about interpretation, as you repeatedly and falsely claim.

I notice that you didn’t address an example of that:  
Are viruses isolated from every H1N1 outbreak since 2009-10 (which 2 days ago you were falsely claiming didn’t even exist) less virulent than those from 2009-10, and will be in the future?

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/214 "2019-10-26T01:27:28Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/430):
>
> Today you’re claiming to know more about population genetics than a population geneticist.

Frankly I couldn’t believe what he said. It was totally surprising that he would not understand that the fitness distribution of random mutations is not a product of selection. I would challenge you to find any peer-reviewed science literature that says what he did right there-- that effectively neutral mutations are split 50/50 between beneficial and deleterious. I mean, maybe some people back in the 1960’s (or earlier) thought that way, but that has been known false for a long time now.

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/215 "2019-10-26T01:33:59Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/430):
>
> Are viruses isolated from every H1N1 outbreak since 2009-10 (which 2 days ago you were falsely claiming didn’t even exist)

It’s disappointing when you misrepresent my statements so blatantly.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/216 "2019-10-26T01:34:49Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/432):
>
> It’s disappointing when you misrepresent my statements so blatantly.

In what way am I misrepresenting your statement?

_“It took the human H1N1 virus 90 years to go extinct (see below).”_

Is H1N1 extinct, Paul?

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/217 "2019-10-26T01:43:15Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/433):
>
> Is H1N1 extinct, Paul?

The “human version” (or what is also known as ‘Spanish Flu’) is (to the best of our scientific ability to detect it). And the CDC chart I showed you agreed with that conclusion 100%.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/218 "2019-10-26T01:45:03Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/434):
>
> The “human version” (or what is also known as ‘Spanish Flu’) is.

Spanish flu is not synonymous with H1N1. Your claim is objectively false.

A cartoon is not the evidence. You don’t understand the chart.

Even your own coauthor disagrees with your claim!

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/219 "2019-10-26T01:46:16Z")

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Sigh, this is pointless. But I thank you for your attention and your readership.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/220 "2019-10-26T01:49:57Z")

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![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/1/13901f6c3c0360fa25d58efa532b6974508b8c0e.gif)

From your coauthor’s legend:  
The 2009–2010 outbreak samples and additional samples from 2011–2012 are circled. These _ **and the scattered points are all derived from swine H1N1** _ versions.

You are unequivocally, objectively misrepresenting the evidence itself. Your misinterpretation of a cartoon is not evidence.

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:50am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/221 "2019-10-26T01:50:50Z")

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Yes, the **swine** H1N1. The human H1N1 (“spanish flu”) is extinct post 2009.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:51am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/222 "2019-10-26T01:51:38Z")

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> [@YEC and The Doctrine of Perspicuity of Scripture](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-and-the-doctrine-of-perspicuity-of-scripture/8137/438):
>
> Yes, the **swine** H1N1. The human H1N1

No, Paul. “Swine H1N1” does not refer to virus isolated from swine.

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**Author:** ![PDPrice](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pdprice/32/6024_2.png) [@PDPrice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/PDPrice)\
**Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/general-yec-discussion/8302/223 "2019-10-26T01:52:46Z")

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It refers to the strain that was circulating in swine and jumped to humans in an outbreak in 2009. It was a different strain than the human H1N1.

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