# God, Genocide and Slavery

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Theology\
**Created:** [September 22, 2020, 7:05am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827 "2020-09-22T07:05:14Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:43am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/21 "2020-09-23T03:43:09Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> For the same reason someone on the dock for crimes can’t judge a judge.

Some animal rights people and the adherents of some religions certainly judge other people who kill, butcher, and eat animals. But most other people see nothing wrong with the mass slaughter of animals for human consumption–even entire herds—such as in beef processing facilities.

So although the word _genocide_ can be and is applied at times to humans who slaughter other humans, we don’t usually apply it “outside” the human species. Somewhat similarly, is it truly “genocide” when God destroys an entire group of people, such as Noah’s contemporaries?

Just wondering what readers think about the assumed “rules” of what types of killing are justified.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/22 "2020-09-23T03:45:17Z")

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> [@Tim](#):
>
> Addendum: It appears at least part (but not all) of the context has now followed us here (if out of order). I am amused however that _this_ is considered sufficiently off-topic as to require a new thread, but the topic of polygamy, which spawned it, was not. 😃

Help us out next time by refraining from off topic digressions. Learn how to start new topics.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:45am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/23 "2020-09-23T03:45:19Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> You made a statement without any justification

It’s implicit in your analogy. Why can’t the prisoner judge the judge? Well of course he can, but his judgment has no effect, while the judge, having the power, can sentence him to death or whatever lesser punishment he deems appropriate. If the judge acts arbitrarily and immorally in carrying out his judgment, the prisoner still has no power to judge him, though he clearly would have moral right. The analogy is all about power.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/24 "2020-09-23T03:48:04Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> But most other people see nothing wrong with the mass slaughter of animals for human consumption–even entire herds—such as in beef processing facilities.

What about killing bacteria and viruses in mass numbers?

I guess the difference in killing humans is that human beings are intelligent beings with autonomy… I guess aninals have that to some extent too.

End of the day, if one sees God as the creator and sustainer of all life, He has the right to take and give life.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/25 "2020-09-23T03:48:30Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> Somewhat similarly, is it truly “genocide” when God destroys an entire group of people, such as Noah’s contemporaries?

Yes, since genocide applies to humans. I’d say it also applies only to willful acts by agents capable of moral action. If God isn’t slaughtering all of humanity willfully, then it isn’t genocide. But he is, so it is. If genocide isn’t justifiable for humans to do, I don’t see how it can be justifiable for God. Again, _Euthyphro_.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:49am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/26 "2020-09-23T03:49:36Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> What about killing bacteria and viruses in mass numbers?

People aren’t bacteria or viruses.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> End of the day, if one sees God as the creator and sustainer of all life, He has the right to take and give life.

Why? Does your mother have a right to kill you? Or only when she’s supporting you?

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:52am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/27 "2020-09-23T03:52:43Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Why can’t the prisoner judge the judge? Well of course he can, but his judgment has no effect, while the judge, having the power, can sentence him to death or whatever lesser punishment he deems appropriate. If the judge acts arbitrarily and immorally in carrying out his judgment, the prisoner still has no power to judge him, though he clearly would have moral right. The analogy is all about power.

Actually judges have a right to judge because of the laws imposed by a sovereign state. The concept behind this is that people have the right to claim sovereign power over some geographical regions called states, come up with rules that need to be followed and punish those who violate the rules and appoint people to make judgements regarding said punishment.

The authority to Judge in this case comes from the people of the nation and the constitution (in case of a democracy). The power to execute those judgements also come from the people.  
In God’s case, the authority to Judge exists because God is the creator and sustainer of all things. It’s not just power (though God has it), but about right.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 3:55am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/28 "2020-09-23T03:55:10Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> People aren’t bacteria or viruses

If you had read below, you would have found that I make the differentiation. I was making the point that people aren’t bacteria.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> I guess the difference in killing humans is that human beings are intelligent beings with autonomy… I guess aninals have that to some extent too.

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Does your mother have a right to kill you? Or only when she’s supporting you?

Now you are showing you dont understand the meaning of God being the sustainer of all things.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/29 "2020-09-23T04:08:25Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> , since genocide applies to humans

Why should Genovide apply only to Humans? Isnt that an arbitrary rule based on the idea that "might is right?

Let me ask you a counter question. Human beings have been taking over large parts of the earth’s geography, claiming exclusive ownership of the same and changing the ecosystem by building roads, canals, dams, cities etc. This has lead to large loss of animal life. By what right do we do this? Isn’t this something far worse than Genocide?

Do you think Genocide is more terrible than the mass extinctions caused by human beings? In which case, aren’t you part of this terrible crime?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/30 "2020-09-23T04:15:14Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> By what right do we do this? Isn’t this something far worse than Genocide?

By no right, just power. No, it’s not worse than genocide, but if we do enough of it the result would be bad enough.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> Do you think Genocide is more terrible than the mass extinctions caused by human beings?

Yes, but mass extinction is still pretty bad. I note that God, in the flood, is also responsible for a mass extinction. Are you sure you’re defending God here? You seem to be indicting him instead.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> Now you are showing you dont understand the meaning of God being the sustainer of all things.

And that lets you evade the question why, exactly?

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> I was making the point that people aren’t bacteria.

No need, as nobody had claimed we were.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> Actually judges have a right to judge because of the laws imposed by a sovereign state.

Yes, by power. Exactly.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> In God’s case, the authority to Judge exists because God is the creator and sustainer of all things.

You haven’t explained how that gives him the right. You have merely ignored the question.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/31 "2020-09-23T04:24:24Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> no right, just power. No, it’s not worse than genocide, but if we do enough of it the result would be bad enough

My point is that human beings do these thing through our power, while God owns all the land and all the people and everything in the universe because of being the creator and sustainer.  
Hence He has a right in addition to the power.

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> that lets you evade the question why, exactly?

I am not evading the question. I am pointing out that God sustains all creation in a way that is very different from how a human being supports another.  
Basic idea is that creation exists and continues to exist because God continually holds it together.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/32 "2020-09-23T04:24:45Z")

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> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> The “I’m glad you agree” comment was in regard to the reference of the bible being God’s words

Which, I have explained, is _not_ what I meant.

> Where I disagree to your comment about God commanding excesses is that often God’s perfect righteousness is not clearly evident to us, He is God and has all knowledge, we are not and don’t understand His wrath as part of justification.

1. Statements of God’s Ineffability simply render claims of his Omnibenevolence into statements of **blind faith**.

2. A less ardently zealous observer would probably see in the Midianite example a **savage tribal god** willing to commit disproportionate atrocities in order to maintain their chosen tribe’s isolation and identity, even from such a minor infraction as a single member sleeping with a woman of another tribe (and even when the ‘transgressors’ had already been killed).

3. As I said before, “I’m sure that, taking a cast iron starting assumption that God is omnibenevolent, and some gymnastics of Theodicy, that a truly determined Christian Apologist can claim that it really was all alright. I’m not really sure however that such justifications are of much interest to anybody who is not already a Christian.” Non-Christians _do not_ share this bedrock assumption, and so are likely to be less than impressed at contortions to preserve it, particularly when taken in conjunction with ineffability claims used as a ‘get out of jail free card’ for scrutinising the morality of God’s actions.

4. If you think that you can justify God’s actions without either assuming omnibenevolence or invoking ineffability, you are welcome to try. I would however point out that this further analysis was _your_ idea. I have nothing invested in it.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:30am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/33 "2020-09-23T04:30:06Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> My point is that human beings do these thing through our power, while God owns all the land and all the people and everything in the universe because of being the creator and sustainer.  
> Hence He has a right in addition to the power.

The problem with that is that we don’t have the right to cause mass extinctions, only the power. Also, we’re doing it by accident, not by choice. Your analogy shows exactly the opposite of what you intend.

Incidentally, owning people is generally frowned upon these days. You’re in favor of slavery as well as genocide?

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> I am pointing out that God sustains all creation in a way that is very different from how a human being supports another.

So? Why is the difference important to granting a right?

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> Basic idea is that creation exists and continues to exist because God continually holds it together.

I doubt that claim. But even if it’s true, why does that give him the right to commit genocide?

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 4:59am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/34 "2020-09-23T04:59:47Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Incidentally, owning people is generally frowned upon these days. You’re in favor of slavery as well as genocide?

People owning dogs is ok… so why not talk about God owning all creation. God has legitimacy as the owner of all creation (being the creator and sustainer) as opposed to human beings as owners of land, cities,animals etc.  
This is a point you dont seem to get.

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> So? Why is the difference important to granting a right?

Because He is sustaining you and me. We owe Him our very existence on a second by second basis.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 12:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/35 "2020-09-23T12:59:35Z")

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I do so have the authority to judge. And my judgement is that God is a fiction. Note that the US Supreme Court calls its judgements opinions.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/36 "2020-09-23T13:13:41Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> People owning dogs is ok… so why not talk about God owning all creation. God has legitimacy as the owner of all creation (being the creator and sustainer) as opposed to human beings as owners of land, cities,animals etc.

1. Dogs aren’t sentient.

2. Most western countries have laws regarding the treatment of pets.

I don’t agree that the act of creation gives the creator full rights over what they create, when that creation is sentient. (I seem to remember Lois McMaster Bujold’s science fiction novel _Falling Free_ exploring such issues and I’m sure other authors have done so as well.)

It could in fact be argued that the act of creating sentience bestows _responsibilities_ rather than rights.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/37 "2020-09-23T13:35:34Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> This is a point you dont seem to get.

It’s a point you don’t seem to make. People aren’t dogs.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> Because He is sustaining you and me. We owe Him our very existence on a second by second basis.

You’re just repeating your claim. Assuming that he actually is sustaining us, which is not actually in evidence, why should that grant him the right to do whatever he likes with us?

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/38 "2020-09-23T17:45:26Z")

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> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> Who are we to judge God?

We are moral beings capable of determining good from evil. Otherwise, how could people claim that God is good?

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**Author:** ![AlanFox](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/alanfox/32/3495_2.png) [@AlanFox](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AlanFox)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/40 "2020-09-23T17:49:28Z")

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> [@Tim](#):
>
> Dogs aren’t sentient.

What?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/god-genocide-and-slavery/11827/41 "2020-09-23T17:59:40Z")

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> **[Sentience](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience)**
>
> Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively. Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia"). In Eastern philosophy, sentience is a metaphysical quality of all things that require respect and care.
> The prevailing scientific view today is that sentience is generated ...

(The definition is rather vague and abstract, but seemed to be the closest to what I had in mind. Somewhere along the lines of self-conscious, self-aware & so forth.)

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