God's Mode of Action in Forming Us

Joel,

The article seems to cover the bases is a way that I find inclusive of the major view (I like to call a deists a deist!). To quote your “general view”:

Our calculated odds would be very small but we might all agree that his particular set of features could have arisen via millions of small events, each of which we would attribute to normal providence. Are we to take the unlikely event of his exact genetic makeup as proof of God’s hand in making Mike Trout? If so, then we could attribute the same proof of God’s hand in making every single one of us. Furthermore, every single animal and plant has also experienced similar changes over time and thus would be evidence of God’s action.

This is the sense that some Christians have that the world is designed. Nothing is left to chance and yet the vast majority of events appear to be chance.

What you’ve shown is that Mike Trout, though arising from a reasonably well understood “natural” process of generation, is, in the sense you describe, “of very low calculated odds.” Which is clearly true, especially from the example of someone who, I assume, is considered exceptional ( we don’t do baseball over here, though I’m proud to say its first mention in history was in my home town!).

But parse “calculated odds” through a filter of the philosophy of statistics, and it actually means “of high uncertainty/unpredictability to us” rather than, in some substantial sense, “apparently by chance.”

If we start from the concept of a caring God working constantly through providence because he wants Mike Trout in his universe, then we expect a unique formative process that produces something (someone) equally surprising and unique. In that case, your last quoted sentence would read, “Nothing is left to chance and so the vast majority of events appear to be creatively contingent.”

What that adds is refinement to your phrase “normal providence” - suggesting that “normal providence” means God working in the world both regularly and contingently, or in other words using nature as his instrument.

What you say elsewhere about the zillions of overlapping and interlocking intended results from such providence - what we might call the “tapestry of creation,” was nicely summarised by an anecdote a friend told me yesterday. Apparently Tim Keller said (a little tongue in cheek) in his church that Redeemer Church was the providential result of Watergate. There was some long explanation about how a relative of Gerald Ford was able to facilitate a blocked visa for a speaker through which (in some way I forget) Tim Keller was called to form a church in NY. To summarise, somebody forgetting to shut a door in the Watergate Building was a necessary condition for a major ministry.

Now Keller’s whole point of that story was clearly not intended to show that God’s universe revolves round his ministry, but that it’s no less brilliant, and a lot more biblical, and considerably more logically plausible, for God to be somehow working with the grain of every event as governor and sustainer, than for him to design a universe-machine of such precision that all those necessary steps unfold algorithmically.

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Here’s a proverbial variation on the theme. The following can be taken as an object lesson in taking care, but actually works better as an understanding of the contingencies involved in even the nost global outcomes:

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

So the question for the “deist” to consider, in this small scale causal chain, and assuming that God was into regime change (as Scripture insists he is), is whether we can realistically conceive that the initial conditions and the laws of nature are finely tuned enough to govern the loss of a horsehoe nail at a particular point in space-time 13 billion years later. It’s a great trick if you can pull it off.

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Agreed. The problem isn’t that you’re bad at paraphrasing; it’s the latter.

Jon, love it. My article was left rather obtuse so the reader can pick it up and continue to think through the implications themselves but I agree when you say “regular patterns of nature are no less a result of divine action than the most spectacular miracles are.” This is an active God in our lives not a passive but still omniscient God who simply knows the future because he set it in motion with the plan built in. I see every moment and every action as being sustained/guided/caused by God and so in some sense is always being created.

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@Ashwin_S

When I wrote this question: “… are you going full circle here? You
just re-stated the scientific position about why science doesnt engage
in God talk… …and yet you say that you dont have enough info to
conclude the source of natural laws! The Book of Job’s broad
discussion of God’s connections to natural phenomena…”

Your answer was practically non-existent: “Read again. My point is
totally different.”

Let me know when you have more time to talk about your ideas.

What I said was, natural laws don’t have an ontological existence… meaning they are just relationships observed by science and don’t exist in reality.
What exists in reality are quantum interactions which somehow result in law-like behaviours in the larger scale. It’s not clear how this happens. And consciousness seems to have a real effect at the quantum level.
Hence it’s entirely possible that God is sustaining what we call the “rules of nature” at this level. And of course the Bible clearly teaches that God sustains the universe.

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@Ashwin_s

I believe you are about a hair’s widtg from paganism. God is the source of all… there is no profit in making the “natural order” into some kind of independent entity… or making humans into some kind of rival in the cosmic order by “actuating” quantum reality.

That’s a wierd way to understand what I said. Or perhaps the better word is misunderstand.

Obviously God is the source of all. And what exactly you do you mean by “natural order”?

@Ashwin_s

I think it is interesting that what i said sounded weird to you… when it was responding to a post where you said natural laws are not ontoligically real!

My definition of the “natural order” is that part of the universe that repeatedly conforms to limits, capacities and rules of operation in such a way that an observor who believes in the Existence of God concludes that God is the author of these limits, capacities and rules of operation.

Yes… in which case it’s God’s will which is real .

The laws are human observations of regular repeatable phenomenon. Yet they don’t seem to have any basis at the quantum level.

This, @Ashwin_s, is a non sequitor.

The laws of order above QM do not have to exist at the Quantum level if God runs an order there as well - - even if it appears to be different.

The question is how does God sustain the universe. The concept of laws gives a picture of God decreeing some laws and the “laws” running the universe.
However if the laws do not exist, then the picture changes. It’s not a non sequitur.
Especially when the question is regarding God’s action in the universe.

@Ashwin_S

You wrote: “The question is how does God sustain the universe. The
concept of laws gives a picture of God decreeing some laws and the
“laws” running the universe. However if the laws do not exist, then
the picture changes. It’s not a non sequitur. Especially when the
question is regarding God’s action in the universe.”

Ashwin, “laws” aren’t running the Universe… God is running the
Universe. if God can give a decree that sinful humans are not
permitted to Heaven, you don’t seem to have any problem with rules
like that.

But when you write: “however if the laws do not exist …” - - well,
isn’t that what we are disputing? You think laws, rules, operations
don’t exist because there is a difference between rules at the QM
level and rules at ABOVE the QM level. That really doesn’t follow…
there are just different rules… A difference in rules doesn’t
invalidate a rule set.

Are you even sure what it is you are debating anymore?

I think Ashwin is aware of the long debate within PoS about what, if anything, “laws of nature” actually mean.

The concept arose in a Christian setting, describing observed regularities in nature in terms of divine laws like the laws of Moses - or, equally, like the decree you suggest that sinful humans are not allowed into heaven.

The problem comes in deciding where those laws exist, and how they impose themselves on the universe. In the case of the decree about heaven, God decides on his action, announces it through the prophets, and enforces it simply by keeping guard on the pearly gates. Meanwhile, his announcement, recorded in Scripture for all to read, encourages people not to sin, and so maybe reach heaven. (This is cartoon theology, by the way, so don’t pick it apart).

But if nothing moves faster than the speed of light, to call that a “law” is only a human construct, derived from what seems always to happen. Perhaps,though, it’s just a habit of God’s activity to limit the speed of things. If it is a law, then where is it written down? Can we find in the Bible, or on a stone tablet somewhere, “Thou shalt not travel faster than light”? And how does it impose itself on nature?

Such problems comeinto stark relief when we think scientifically, ie naturalistically. After all, the concept of “laws of nature” is one that comes from science. But if there isn’t a God actually limiting the speed of photons by his power and will, it’s an even bigger problem deciding what these “laws” actually are, or how they work, or why they’re universal.

Ashwin, as I read him, is simply alluding to those problems, which are widely recognised and discussed in philosophy of science.

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You seem to be conflating “laws of nature” with “God’s decrees”… do you think there is some overlap on these concepts. If so, can you explain why you seem to think laws of nature are the same as God’s decrees?
@jongarvey has pointed out what I was driving at very well. So I don’t see any point in repeating the same :slight_smile:

@Ashwin_s

They are the same to this extent: neither God’s decrees nor God’s natural laws can be modified or suspended except by God Himself.

Ok fair enough… what are God’s natural laws? Can you name a few? And how you know they are God’s natural laws?

Nobody knows enough about nature to write a complete list of all His laws. But we know that evaporation and condensation are examples… and they are used to make rain.

Arent you confusing categories here? The “law” for evaporation/condensation would be descriptions of the temperature, pressure etc at which water turns to water vapour and temperature pressure etc at which water vapor condenses. These are scientific descriptions, not laws decrees by God. Perhaps God decreed these phenomenon as laws, but we don’t know if he has. This has not been revealed to us in any scripture.
These descriptions are created based on regular observation and scientific hypothesis. How did this become equal to a divine decree?
Does God control the water cycle by divine decrees or by other processes which result in a regular pattern.
This is not revealed clearly in the Bible. In fact many of God’s decrees are executed through God’s actions/the actions of his angels in the bible.

@Ashwin_s

I cant imagine any other way to describe a natural law.

Unlike human laws, which leave its evidence of “beingness” in the form of written or spoken words, the only evidence for natural law is found in well crafted descriptions (usually written by humans) … which enable scientists to PREDICT what will happen here or there.

You are tilting against windmills.