H1N1 and Genetic Entropy

It’s not about “defeating” anything. It’s about truth, a Christian virtue.

You are not interpreting the same evidence differently. You are (apparently deliberately) misrepresenting the evidence itself, a case in point being your claim that influenza H1N1 is extinct. If it’s not, it doesn’t support the claim of genetic entropy.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/burden-of-h1n1.html

CDC estimates that from 2009 through 2018 , influenza A H1N1pdm09 has caused at least:

100.5 million

illnesses

936,000

hospitalizations

75,000

deaths

Precisely how does an extinct virus do all of this, Paul?


This outbreak occurred in 2017. You claimed that H1N1 was extinct in 2018. Do you not accept this evidence because Indians don’t count to you as humans, that they are “minor,” or what?

The existence of H1N1 is a big deal.
Why are you falsely telling people that it is extinct?
Why are you here, claiming that the 2012 paper supports your false claim, when it doesn’t?

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That’s absurd. Influenza A is fundamental to GE according to YOU. You chose it.

You have never responded to my allegation that your claim of extinction of influenza A H1N1 is objectively false. You have diverted by falsely claiming that it is supported by the 2012 paper. That’s not responding.

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You must not have read this post where I clearly said it was not fundamental but more of a side foray into attempting to demonstrate GE in the real world, which can be difficult because of how slow it is and how the terms are defined.

You have never responded to my allegation that your claim of extinction of influenza A H1N1 is objectively false.

H1N1pdm09 is swine flu, a different strain than the one C&S are arguing went extinct. Are there any virologists here that can explain this concept to Mercer? I’ve tried.

What you say now doesn’t matter. It failed.

Carter and Sanford wrote in 2012 that H1N1 was “apparently” extinct. Since it isn’t extinct and has killed ~75000 human beings since then, it simply doesn’t support the hypothesis.

The ethical course of action would be to admit this, not to tap-dance and try to pretend that it was just a “side foray.” It’s just wrong.

Maybe you should make an effort to understand the terms before grossly misinforming (deliberately or not) laypeople.

It is. It’s also a “human strain” by your definition, concocted to try and justify a web of misrepresentations (intentional or not).

You claimed that H1N1 is extinct. Your claim is objectively false. That’s the only concept that needs explaining.

You are unwilling to correct that false claim.

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You’re doubling down on your wrong claim, apparently unwilling to admit you’ve made a mistake here. Neither Carter & Sanford nor I ever claimed that all forms of H1N1 are extinct. Just the human form, known also as “spanish flu”.

I haven’t made a mistake in this case. You haven’t shown how my claim is wrong.

You:
“It took the human H1N1 virus 90 years to go extinct (see below).”
“H1N1pdm09 is swine flu…”

Reality:
“Influenza A (H1N1) pdm09 emerged as a major public health problem in 2009. The virus has evolved since then and has acquired several mutations that are epidemiologically important. Viral hemagglutinin (HA) protein is crucial determinant for virus entry, antigenicity, and virulence. The information regarding amino acid substitutions in HA protein of viruses circulating in India during 2017 is lacking. We sequenced HA gene of Influenza A (H1N1) pdm09 detected in Central India and compared the amino acid sequences with present vaccine component and contemporary Influenza A (H1N1) pdm09 sequences. We observed 7 amino acid changes of which two (T508A and I510T) were novel to Central Indian strain.”

H1N1pdm09, which you’re desperately trying to obfuscate as mere “swine flu,” is infecting and being isolated from humans in 2019, thus also fitting your “human H1N1 virus” definition, which you falsely claim is extinct.

Or are you claiming that these Indian patients in Madhya Pradesh are swine?

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From the CDC link supplied by Mercer, the virus is H1N1, and and is human form enough to be making humans sick, hospitalized, and dead to this date.

Paul has a pattern of thread jumping whenever the facts presented become inconvenient to his position.

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You’re jumping on a sinking ship here. “Human H1N1” does not refer to “The only strain of H1N1 that can be contracted by humans.” It’s talking about the origin of the strain. H1N1’s origins are not known for sure, but there was a strain circulating in humans for 90 years that was simply H1N1. It’s now gone. H1N1pdm09 is a different strain that had been circulating in swine until it jumped to humans in 2009, and thus the name swine flu.

The GE threads are multiplying faster than I can type.

Your original H1N1 did not remain unaltered even in 1918, let alone 90 years.

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Ah, so it accumulated beneficial mutation that has allowed it to continue to thrive in the face of concerted efforts by the most intelligent organism on earth to eradicate it.

Tell us, again, about how everything must go extinct because Genetic Entropy. Uh huh.

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Wait a minute. Our attempts to eradicate it are example of ID, right? :smiley:

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You’re projecting and using a straw man fallacy. No one is thinking or claiming anything of the sort. H1N1 is a subtype that includes many strains, not a strain. We’ve been through that already. Have you already forgotten, or are you obfuscating?

No, it isn’t at all. It’s from serotyping of the hemagglutinin and neuraminidase proteins.

You’re just fabricating furiously at this point.

There is no strain that is “simply H1N1,” as H1N1 is a subtype. Your obfuscations aren’t working.

How can H1N1pdm09 not be a subset of subtype H1N1, Paul? That’s ludicrous.

And it’s H1N1–that’s why H1N1 is part of its name. Therefore, your claim that H1N1 is extinct is objectively false.

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I won’t go around and around on this another time with you.

That means you’ll have time to explain why the equine genetic history I posted for you on the other thread shows no GE, and why GE didn’t wipe out the pairs on the Ark. Right?

Right?

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I’d just like you to stop claiming that H1N1, which is still killing people, is “extinct” on your web site. It’s false.

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The tactic is called Creationist Wack-A-Mole. A Creationist makes an outlandish claim, someone posts refuting scientific evidence, ZING! the Creationist skips off to another thread and repeats the claim. Wash, rinse, repeat. A skilled Creationist can keep up the snipe hunt for weeks. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Wow. That’s just breathtakingly false.

I am pointing out that YOU are misrepresenting the evidence presented in that paper. YOU are claiming that the graph refers to something different than the published paper’s description.

The point is that YOUR claim in the online article under YOUR NAME is objectively false, Paul. Can you explain this bizarre idea that I should publish in the same journal? It’s not a good one.

But following your argument, I should publish on your web site. Are you cool with that?

Kind of, but not precisely correct.

The key to understanding influenza is understanding that the genome is in 8 pieces (“segmented”), so the big events are when those pieces get mixed in a new combination by two viruses infecting the same cell in the same host.

The thing that Paul can’t seem to grasp is that there are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic infections all the time in all the different hosts.

Mutations are involved, of course, because the viral polymerase has an enormous error rate, but they are generally secondary.

No, it isn’t. The Spanish Flu (Human H1N1) is extinct, not detected in the databases after 2009. That is C&S’s thesis for their paper, and that’s why I make the claim myself.

I’ve definitely been on a learning curve the past couple of days, but it is interesting. I have indeed encountered the discussion on mutual infection,
Reassortment of the influenza virus genome
…and read previously The Tangled Tree by Quammen
The Tangled Tree
I did come across this paper that seems to deal a lot with mutations apart from recombinations in respect to cross species infection:
The inter-species transmission of influenza A virus

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