# How Does Biological Evolution Deal With This?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [November 25, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579 "2019-11-25T16:23:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 15

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/282 "2019-12-13T15:35:10Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> but we need to go by the evidence we have. and by the evidence we do have there are no such fossils.

We don’t have evidence demonstrating that an earlier species did not exist. Therefore, you can’t make that claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.

> [@scd](#):
>
> indeed. but we did had close species like the lungfish and others. and they are date for a similar date like the tiktaalik.

Wouldn’t lungfish be out of place, according to your logic?

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**Author:** ![RonSewell](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ronsewell/32/6194_2.png) [@RonSewell](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/RonSewell)\
**Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/283 "2019-12-13T17:39:34Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> who said they are?

Pretty much all paleontologists? KT and other extinction boundaries observed in fossil record?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/284 "2019-12-14T16:47:44Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> It’s not simply decent camouflage or just color, it’s really quite detailed. I have a hard time reconciling the slow speed of evolution with the specificity.

@Jordan

And I’m wondering why a Christian is wondering?

This is a place where Christians discuss how God could use Evolution to effect His creations, right?  
Or was the original question intended to be asked of Atheist Scientists only?

When questions are worded like the one in the O.P., it tends to unintentionally (and un-necessarily) reinforce the “presumed polarization” of discussions - - if you endorse Evolution, then you must not believe God designed the Universe… and if you think God designed the Universe, then you must reject Evolution.

**I bring this up (and will continue to bring this up) as a reminder to TWO of the three sides of the discussion that GAE is intentionally opening up a “3rd wing” of the discussion: how God can use Evolution to fulfill the Biblical narratives!**

I say “You are welcome” in advance to those who understand what I am talking about.

Cautionary Note: It goes without saying that I am talking about God’s design in the most generic sense, and by no means am I endorsing the epistemologically flawed narratives promoted by Intelligent Design proponents.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/285 "2019-12-14T17:26:42Z")

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> [@gbrooks9](#):
>
> > It’s not simply decent camouflage or just color, it’s really quite detailed. I have a hard time reconciling the slow speed of evolution with the specificity.
> 
> @Jordan
> 
> And I’m wondering why a Christian is wondering?

Because there’s a lot I don’t know!

Part of my “agenda” as a Christian and a scientist is to try to break down what I see as walls of absolutism that have been built up in public discourse on both sides. I can have many questions about evolution without questioning evolution. I can have many questions about Christianity without questioning Christianity.

I looked at the very specific and detailed pattern of the insect and wondered how could that have developed gradually over (perhaps) millions of years. I flat out don’t know a ton of stuff about science and theology, and I come here to get expert knowledge in both.

> [@gbrooks9](#):
>
> > This is a place where Christians discuss how God could use Evolution to effect His creations, right?

Yes, I think that’s one of the topics. Right now GAE seems pretty hot, and that doesn’t have a lot about how God could use Evolution _per se_, it’s mostly just assumed, which is fine. I would like to see more scholarly work done around your question as I’m not sure how it all works (how often does God give a nudge, if he ever does)?

> [@gbrooks9](#):
>
> > Or was the original question intended to be asked of Atheist Scientists only?

The question, I thought, was open to all.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/286 "2019-12-14T17:46:51Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> I would like to see more scholarly work done around your question as I’m not sure how it all works (how often does God give a nudge, if he ever does)?

@Jordan,

I like your response. And I offer the caution (and I think you will agree) that readers should not expect scientists to be writing about God using Evolution. This is a theological and metaphysical discussion - - not one that meets scientific criteria.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> The question, I thought, was open to all.

My point is reinforced:  
**Yes, I also believe the question was intended for all. And that is why I posted my “kavetch”!!!  
Without any qualifying proviso (namely, that it is NORMAL for God to use natural processes to accomplish his end), the question unintentionally reinforces the very “polarization” that GAE is intended to DISMANTLE!!!**

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/287 "2019-12-14T18:03:55Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> I looked at the very specific and detailed pattern of the insect and wondered how could that have developed gradually over (perhaps) millions of years.

I strongly recommend that you look at the patterns of multiple individuals before characterizing them as “specific.” A Google image search for the species name will do…

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/288 "2019-12-14T19:22:50Z")

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Yes, I did that, and I did see that some of them look more generic than others.

My point was that I think for most people evolution just doesn’t make a lot of sense when you look at the complexity and scales involved. That’s fine, a lot of things that are true don’t make a lot of sense, that’s why we have scientists. So it doesn’t help if biologists downplay how incredible or unintuitive evolutionary science can be, as if it was completely obvious how ATPase or the eye got here, or how this insect could develop such amazing camouflage.

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**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/289 "2019-12-14T19:39:49Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> If you are saying that are certain examples of fossils that are “out of place” in relation to the other fossils, that can only be true if there is a pattern that exists among the other fossils that means they are all in place.

lets check this. but first i need your definition for out of place or at least i will gave such definition and tell me if you agree. remember that the tetrapod tracks are out of place because they predate the evolution of limb (limb and then transitional fossil between fin and limb instead of the opposite) . so basically any trait that doesnt fit well with the evolutionery hierarchy make the fossil out of place. do you agree so far?

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Why DON"T we ever find a single fossil of a land vertebrate prior to the Devonian era?

first: its after the fact question. before the finding of the tetrapod tracks you could ask the same question about 370 my layer where we had the first tetrapod like the Ichthyostega. second: there are much more species of fish, so even if all fish and tetrapods were created in the same time, we should not find them at the same layer since fish have more chance to leave fossils (because they are more common). and there are other explanations too.

> [@Rich\_Hampton](#):
>
> That makes no sense. The evolution of the dolphin and penguin lineages converged on the same basic propulsion strategy using what was available (leg, wing)

but you suggested that it will be impossible to evolve a fish fin twice. right? if so can you give me your calculation that show why this is indeed impossible?

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> We don’t have evidence demonstrating that an earlier species did not exist. Therefore, you can’t make that claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.

so we can say the same about human fossils. who knows, maybe there are human fossils that date to the dinos age.

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Wouldn’t lungfish be out of place, according to your logic?

why?

> [@RonSewell](#):
>
> Pretty much all paleontologists?

and the evidence for their claim is?..

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/290 "2019-12-14T19:44:23Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> Yes, I did that, and I did see that some of them look more generic than others.

So the current state is that evolution has settled on a range of existing variations. Then why would you claim it was specific?

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> My point was that I think for most people evolution just doesn’t make a lot of sense when you look at the complexity and scales involved.

My point is that you grossly exaggerated the specificity of the pattern. Removing your exaggeration removes literally orders of magnitude of complexity.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> So it doesn’t help if biologists downplay how incredible or unintuitive evolutionary science can be, as if it was completely obvious how ATPase or the eye got here, or how this insect could develop such amazing camouflage.

That seems to be a straw man, as I don’t see any scientists here or anywhere else downplaying in that way. I see scientists who rigorously study such phenomena to understand the underlying complexity.

The thing you seem to be missing is that the NATURE of that complexity virtually screams that it arose from an iterative process. How do you recommend that we induce people to look deeply enough to see that, Jordan?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/291 "2019-12-14T20:03:37Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> > Yes, I did that, and I did see that some of them look more generic than others.
> 
> Then why did you claim it was specific?

Because it does seems to be specifically for camoflauge for a green leaf. I’m sure that’s not rare, but it isn’t a stick or a flower, etc.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> My point is that you grossly exaggerated the specificity of the pattern. Removing your exaggeration removes orders of magnitude of complexity.

Perhaps, but that’s what a non-expert often sees. I’m not trying to make a claim _per se_ here just saying that it can look pretty specific and it for sure is incredibly complex, but maybe not as complex as it may seem for experts.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> The thing you seem to be missing is that the NATURE of that complexity virtually screams that it arose from an iterative process.

That’s fine, I’m not arguing against that. I’m saying to the untrained eye/mind I can be hard to grasp.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/292 "2019-12-14T20:07:28Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> How do you recommend that we induce people to look deeply enough to see that, Jordan?

I’ve done it by coming here and listening to experts such as yourself. I’ve also dug into some pop gen simulations, etc. to help understand it as well. I asked my geneticist colleagues a bunch of questions too.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/293 "2019-12-14T20:10:37Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> Because it does seems to be specifically for camoflauge for a green leaf. I’m sure that’s not rare, but it isn’t a stick or a flower, etc.

But the pattern is not specific. There is no specific pattern.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> Perhaps, but that’s what a non-expert often sees. I’m not trying to make a claim _per se_ here just saying that it can look pretty specific…

You did make a claim. Thanks for retracting it, no matter how vaguely.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> …and it for sure is incredibly complex, but maybe not as complex as it may seem for experts.

And I’m saying that the complexity is there, but its nature is not what you are assuming it is.

But, hey, you’re a chemistry professor. If I can learn biochemistry in my 50s, what exactly is stopping you from understanding evolutionary mechanisms in greater depth?

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> That’s fine, I’m not arguing against that. I’m saying to the untrained eye/mind I can be hard to grasp.

So are you retracting your claim that biologists downplay how incredible evolutionary science can be? If not, I’d really like to see 10 or so examples, since you made an explicitly categorical claim about biologists.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/294 "2019-12-14T20:13:11Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> > How do you recommend that we induce people to look deeply enough to see that, Jordan?
> 
> I’ve done it by coming here and listening to experts such as yourself.

I’m not an evolutionary biologist.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> I’ve also dug into some pop gen simulations, etc. to help understand it as well. I asked my geneticist colleagues a bunch of questions too.

Do you have the basic understanding that selection acts primarily on existing variation (corollary: without such pools of existing variation populations become extinct), and not the ridiculous creationist straw man that selection only acts on new mutations?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/295 "2019-12-14T20:56:40Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> > evidence for absence.
> 
> so we can say the same about human fossils. who knows, maybe there are human fossils that date to the dinos age

@scd

And so, in fact, if the Global Flood occurred sometime before or after the Pyramids of Giza were complete, you would expect thousands of human skeletons mingled with thousands of dinosaurs all buried and fossilized together in the vast confines of the Nile River Valley.

Buttttttt… we dont! And that’s a massive problem.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/296 "2019-12-14T21:25:17Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> > Because it does seems to be specifically for camoflauge for a green leaf. I’m sure that’s not rare, but it isn’t a stick or a flower, etc.
> 
> But the pattern is not specific. There is no specific pattern.

No, not a specific pattern, but it does have a leaf-shaped shield and pretty good color-matching. I’m just saying that it seems very well matched to its environment and it seems remarkable. I’m not making any particular scientific claims.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> And I’m saying that the complexity is there, but its nature is not what you are assuming it is.
> 
> But, hey, you’re a chemistry professor. If I can learn biochemistry in my 50s, what exactly is stopping you from understanding evolutionary mechanisms in greater depth?

That’s a big reason why I’m here, as I’ve said repeatedly! I want to know more, I’ve learned a lot, but it’s frustrating when I have questions and people jump down my throat for just expressing them or pushing my own understanding by dialogue.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> So are you retracting your claim that biologists downplay how incredible evolutionary science can be?

It’s not a claim so much as an observation and experience. Don’t take it too strongly, I just find that when I have questions (like the original one in this thread about the insect) it’s often met with “why are you questioning evolution” type statements. I find that frustrating because that’s not my intent.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Do you have the basic understanding that selection acts primarily on existing variation (corollary: without such pools of existing variation populations become extinct), and not the ridiculous creationist straw man that selection only acts on new mutations?

That makes sense, yes.

My questions are usually more along the lines of “where did this protein/DNA sequence/system come from?” I think I get natural selection fairly well, although admittedly most evolutionary biology (especially pop gen and molecular genetics) is relatively new to me. I’m basically trying to relearn a lot of undergraduate biology as it didn’t seem interesting/important to me at the time unfortunately.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e95f7d/32.png) [@Robert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Robert)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/297 "2019-12-14T21:38:51Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> > We don’t have evidence demonstrating that an earlier species did not exist. Therefore, you can’t make that claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.
> 
> so we can say the same about human fossils. who knows, maybe there are human fossils that date to the dinos age.

The fossil record is clearly incomplete - all you have to do is compare the number of known fossil species to the number of living species, or look at the rate at which fossil taxa are being discovered. But the fossil record is not so incomplete that it is uninformative. The fossil record clearly demonstrates faunal succession - that rocks of different ages have different faunas. It also shows correlation between successive faunas. Both those observations are evidence for evolution.

For the specific instance of Mesozoic humans, there are no unambiguous crown placentals in the Cretaceous. But your hypothesis requires not only humans, but also australopithecines, chimpanzees, gorillas, orangs, gibbons, old world monkeys, new world monkeys, tarsiers, strepsirrhines, plesiadapids, tree shrews, colugos, Glires, Laurasiatherians, Afrotherians and Xenarthans - and realistically speaking many subgroups of the later elements in that list - to have been present in the Cretaceous.

The observation that you’re trying to account for is not no humans in the Cretaceous, but no mammals of modern aspect at all in the Cretaceous. At some point along the line here absence of evidence becomes evidence of absence - if we should have found evidence and we haven’t then that is indeed evidence of absence.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/298 "2019-12-14T22:13:49Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> lets check this. but first i need your definition for out of place or at least i will gave such definition and tell me if you agree. remember that the tetrapod tracks are out of place because they predate the evolution of limb (limb and then transitional fossil between fin and limb instead of the opposite) . so basically any trait that doesnt fit well with the evolutionery hierarchy make the fossil out of place. do you agree so far?

No.

> [@scd](#):
>
> first: its after the fact question. before the finding of the tetrapod tracks you could ask the same question about 370 my layer where we had the first tetrapod like the Ichthyostega. second: there are much more species of fish, so even if all fish and tetrapods were created in the same time, we should not find them at the same layer since fish have more chance to leave fossils (because they are more common). and there are other explanations too.

That makes no sense. If the fact that fish are more abundant is the explanation, then we should not be finding land vertebrates anywhere, because fish were always more abundant.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/299 "2019-12-14T23:07:33Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> No, not a specific pattern, but it does have a leaf-shaped shield and pretty good color-matching.

Matching? The color varies substantially, does it not?

If you don’t see a specific pattern, why did you you claim that there was a “very specific and detailed pattern”?

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> I looked at the _ **very specific and detailed pattern** _ of the insect…

Which is it? Those two statements are not compatible.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> I want to know more, I’ve learned a lot, but it’s frustrating when I have questions and people jump down my throat for just expressing them or pushing my own understanding by dialogue.

In this case, you are making two strident claims that you aren’t supporting. That strikes me as an odd way of trying to learn more.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> > So are you retracting your claim that biologists downplay how incredible evolutionary science can be? If not, I’d really like to see 10 or so examples, since you made an explicitly categorical claim about biologists.
> 
> It’s not a claim so much as an observation and experience.

And I am very skeptical of your claim. Would you please relate 10 of such observations and/or experiences? As a biologist, I find it very offensive.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> Don’t take it too strongly…

Don’t make it so strongly, then. 🕶

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> I just find that when I have questions (like the original one in this thread about the insect) it’s often met with “why are you questioning evolution” type statements.

That wasn’t your claim. Your claim was:

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> So it doesn’t help if biologists downplay how incredible or unintuitive evolutionary science can be…

The claim was a categorical one about biologists downplaying, not about questioning. Do you even have a single example of a biologist doing what you alleged they do categorically?

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> > Do you have the basic understanding that selection acts primarily on existing variation (corollary: without such pools of existing variation populations become extinct), and not the ridiculous creationist straw man that selection only acts on new mutations?
> 
> That makes sense, yes.

That’s a predictably mushy response. This is at the heart of what Darwinian evolution is, not some mere speculation. Misrepresenting this is at the heart of most deliberate and intentional misunderstandings of evolution; the next most frequent is pretending that neutral theory and evolution does not exist. I’ve found ignoring existing variation to be all but universal among evolution skeptics.

To give you a metaphorical idea of its magnitude of this misrepresentation, if the size of the pool of existing variation in a mammalian species is a bathtub full of water, how much new water (mutations) is added per generation? Note that these numbers are real observational data, not conjecture.

> [@Jordan](#):
>
> My questions are usually more along the lines of “where did this protein/DNA sequence/system come from?”

Maybe you don’t mean them this way, but your questions (particularly in this case) come off as the mushiest sort of “both sidesism” or calculated fence-sitting, and lack the chemical aspect I would expect from a chemistry professor. That’s why I challenge them, and since you never seem to stand by them, my impression is reinforced. You don’t seem to be trying very hard, particularly in this case, where you’ve made two strong claims from which you are backpedaling.

How about receptor-ligand interactions? The complexity of crosstalk is incredible. That would seem to be something that should interest a chemist.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rich\_Hampton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e4f/32.png) [@Rich\_Hampton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rich_Hampton)\
**Post date:** [December 14, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/300 "2019-12-14T23:31:57Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> but you suggested that it will be impossible to evolve a fish fin twice. right?

You didn’t read closely

> [@Rich\_Hampton](#):
>
> a non fish fin will not have The same number and placement of bone, cartilage, muscle, etc because the fin was adapted from a different structure, like a leg or a wing

And if you took a look at this link : [https://images.app.goo.gl/Jj5mJzTYgobGJHsz5](https://images.app.goo.gl/Jj5mJzTYgobGJHsz5) you can see quite clearly they are very different structures. The fish fin did not evolve again in the penguin or the dolphin

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/301 "2019-12-15T00:39:17Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> first: its after the fact question.

After the fact _question_? Your comment is meaningless. History took place _in the past_, and we can only ever ask questions about it _in the present_. What are you even trying to imply here?

Ad-hoc _explanations_ can be a problem, ad-hoc _questions_ not so much.

> before the finding of the tetrapod tracks you could ask the same question about 370 my layer where we had the first tetrapod like the Ichthyostega.

And it’d been a good question then, too, and it still is. Why do we find that fish appear first in the fossil record, before fossil tetrapods? The question would have made sense before the tracks were found(the oldest fossil fish are a lot older than the oldest fossil tetrapods), and they still make sense now(the oldes fossil fish are _still_ a lot older than the oldest tetrapod _trackways_).

The situation hasn’t changed, the oldest evidence for fish is still a lot older than the oldest evidence for true tetrapods.

> second: there are much more species of fish, so even if all fish and tetrapods were created in the same time, we should not find them at the same layer since fish have more chance to leave fossils (because they are more common). and there are other explanations too.

See now _that_ is ad-hoc explanation.

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