# How Does Biological Evolution Deal With This?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [November 25, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579 "2019-11-25T16:23:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 9

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/162 "2019-12-04T17:14:04Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> we have billions of people in the wrold. and we never seen someone who evolved say a new organ part like a part of a wing or a new part of an eye etc. so the chance to get a new anatomical part is probably lower than few billions. a

That moment when you realize the person you thought understands next to nothing about a topic actually understand even less.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Chris\_Falter](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/chris_falter/32/3811_2.png) [@Chris\_Falter](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Chris_Falter)\
**Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/163 "2019-12-04T17:50:43Z")

</div>

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> And gene-regulation is not all-or-nothing, black/white, fully on/fully off. It comes in extremely tiny gradations.

Much as stochastic gradient descent fits a neural network prediction model over numerous training epochs.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 6:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/164 "2019-12-04T18:59:26Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> im talking about the octopus case.

How does the octopus make light/dark changes?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/165 "2019-12-04T19:01:52Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> for instance: we have billions of people in the wrold. and we never seen someone who evolved say a new organ part like a part of a wing or a new part of an eye etc. so the chance to get a new anatomical part is probably lower than few billions.

Do you really not realize, after all you’ve posted (and possibly read) here, that evolution never happens to individual organisms, that it can only happen to populations?

If you don’t realize something this basic, would realizing it change your position on evolution?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/166 "2019-12-04T20:45:05Z")

</div>

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Do you really not realize, after all you’ve posted (and possibly read) here, that evolution never happens to individual organisms, that it can only happen to populations?

[dad dumb joke]

Did you hear about the family who sent their young son off to bording school?

When the boy returned in two years he had grown another foot!

[/dad dumb joke]

🙂

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/167 "2019-12-05T17:40:42Z")

</div>

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> You did not understand the analogy. It is merely to demonstrate that the odds of any particular combination of numbers is much more easily arrived at if the process can be cumulative rather than simultaneous.

of course. the problem is that it cant happen if we need at least several mutations.

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> I would like you to try explain why this could not work if the mutation was neutral.

so if we assume that one in billion sequences is functional and say that the first mutation is now in the population. what next? we need the second mutation and it will take about billion more mutations. but till we will get the second mutation i think that the neutral mutation will be lost since it will get many mutations that will remove\change it.

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> It didn’t take billions of mutations to produce the differences between us.

maybe. but in this case its irrelevant since we might not dealing with complex system. im talking about new anatomical part.

> [@evograd](#):
>
> We have observed HGT between organisms resulting in a sequence in one organism resembling the sequence in another organism, which is what is being claimed happened here.

if the sequence is different and has a different complex function then it might not be the result of HGT.

> [@evograd](#):
>
> No, I haven’t forgotten about convergence, what makes you think that?

it just was a rhetorical question.

> [@evograd](#):
>
> When we find a symbiotic prokaryote living in very close association with cephalopods, and this prokaryote has a transposon in its genome that has a high sequence similarity to parts of a cephalopod-specific gene, it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude that this sequence was transferred from the prokaryote to the cephalopod.

maybe it is the result of HGT but it depend in many factors (for instance how much the function is different). but i dont want to get into this now. my main point is that some systems need at least several genes and thus probably cant evolve stepwise. so a single gene that evolved from a transposon will not give us a complex biological system.

> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> No one person has ever observed a mature redwood tree grow all the way from a seed. Does that mean redwood trees were POOFED into existence?

how is this relevant to the number of mutations?

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Do you really not realize, after all you’ve posted (and possibly read) here, that evolution never happens to individual organisms, that it can only happen to populations?

how is this relevant to the number of mutation that we need to a new anatomical part? and by the way evolution in a population need to start first in individual organism after all.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/168 "2019-12-05T17:49:34Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> maybe. but in this case its irrelevant since we might not dealing with complex system. im talking about new anatomical part.

Maybe? Do you doubt that the physical differences between chimps and humans are due to the differences in the sequence of our genomes?

Also, humans and chimps are complex, so I am curious as to why you don’t think this a good example.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/169 "2019-12-05T17:55:09Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Do you doubt that the physical differences between chimps and humans are due to the differences in the sequence of our genomes?

of course not. i refer to the number of mutations to get a new anatomical part. again; we have billions of pople and basically zero new anatomical functional part. so if we assume that in general a single new anatomical part take a billion mutations the chance to get two of them is thus 10^18 and 3 is 10^27 etc.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/170 "2019-12-05T18:02:53Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> the problem is that it cant happen if we need at least several mutations.

So in the real world when the bacteria in the long-term evolution experiment with E coli have accumulated somewhere between hundreds, to several thousand mutations, this “can’t happen”?

Forgive me but I think I’m going to just go with what happens in reality, instead of letting your creationism-polluted intuitions guide our understanding.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/171 "2019-12-05T18:11:49Z")

</div>

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> So in the real world when the bacteria in the long-term evolution experiment with E coli have accumulated somewhere between hundreds, to several thousand mutations, this “can’t happen”?

who said that it cant happen? im not talking about any mutation but about specific mutation.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/172 "2019-12-05T18:27:29Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> of course not. i refer to the number of mutations to get a new anatomical part.

Do you think a single mutation can result in a new anatomical part? Most biologists think it requires an accumulation of many mutations, certainly more than could be accumulated in a single generation. So why do you expect to see a new anatomical feature pop up in one or a few generations?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/173 "2019-12-05T18:33:25Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> who said that it cant happen? im not talking about any mutation but about specific mutation.

So if I point out ten specific ones of all those mutations that happened in the experiment, you will say what?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/174 "2019-12-05T18:36:53Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> So why do you expect to see a new anatomical feature pop up in one or a few generations?

that is my point. i was very generous when i said that a single mutation=new anatomical part.

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> So if I point out ten specific ones of all those mutations that happened in the experiment, you will say what?

what should i say?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/175 "2019-12-05T18:40:25Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> what should i say?

What you think is your best response.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/176 "2019-12-05T19:32:44Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> that is my point. i was very generous when i said that a single mutation=new anatomical part.

Then why would you expect a new anatomical part to suddenly appear in the human population?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/177 "2019-12-05T19:33:43Z")

</div>

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> new anatomical feature pop up in one or a few generations?

Especially in a population that’s in the billions. Gould would argue humans should be experiencing stasis right now

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/178 "2019-12-05T19:35:43Z")

</div>

> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> Especially in a population that’s in the billions. Gould would argue humans should be experiencing stasis right now

Gould would also argue that it is possible for an isolated human population living in an inhospitable environment to rapidly evolve, but not as rapid as @scd is suggesting.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![RonSewell](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ronsewell/32/6194_2.png) [@RonSewell](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/RonSewell)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/179 "2019-12-05T19:40:07Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> we have billions of people in the wrold. and we never seen someone who evolved say a new organ part like a part of a wing or a new part of an eye etc. so the chance to get a new anatomical part is probably lower than few billions. at least from what we can see in the real wrold.

I have to hand it to you. You have left the world of science and evidence, zoomed past speculation, went past common sense in a blur, and in seriously suggesting that evolutionary theory would even allow for people sprouting wing parts, have finally exited the realm of rational discourse.

Most boss YEC/ID folk I know would have long offered camouflage and mimicry as examples of micro-evolution, punched their time-card, and called it a day.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/180 "2019-12-05T21:57:07Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> so if we assume that one in billion sequences is functional and say that the first mutation is now in the population. what next? we need the second mutation and it will take about billion more mutations. but till we will get the second mutation i think that the neutral mutation will be lost since it will get many mutations that will remove\change it.

If one in a billion sequences in functional (and I don’t know where you got that number from, but let’s go with it) how to you go from that to concluding that it would take a billion more mutations before the 2nd one occurs? Just because the number “a billion” applies to one part of the calculation, does not mean it applies to all the others.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579/181 "2019-12-05T22:00:22Z")

</div>

> [@scd](#):
>
> of course not. i refer to the number of mutations to get a new anatomical part. again; we have billions of pople and basically zero new anatomical functional part.

You have not specified what you mean by “a new anatomical part.” Are you talking about something like a human child being born tomorrow with functioning wings attached to his back, in addition to the two arms and two legs that his parents have? If so, please demonstrate exactly where something like this would have had to have occurred in the history of life on earth according to the theory of evolution.

Edit: I wrote that before seeing @RonSewell’s post above. It’s good to know someone else is thinking along the same lines.

[Previous page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579.md?page=8)

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-does-biological-evolution-deal-with-this/8579.md?page=10)