ID Interest in Peaceful Science

(Neil Rickert) #1

I’ve been amused by the number of ENV posts about @swamidass – it suggests that they see you as a threat. And maybe that’s a good thing.

If ID were really science, then they would be too busy with their science to be worried about what’s happening at PeacefulScience.

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So Much to Discuss
(Timothy Horton) #2

Pretty much. The folks at the DI need something, anything to deflect from the fact ID as a scientific endeavor is completely impotent. Gotta keep those donations from the True Believers coming in somehow.

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(S. Joshua Swamidass) #3

We can’t know for sure what motivated them to engage with me. Whatever the case I want us to be kind to them when they come. That is the only way productive conversation can take place. I want to see Axe and @Art hash it out, and that will only happen if snarky comments are kept out of it.

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(T J Runyon) #4

I’ve had some private discussions with Axe here recently. Seems like a lovely guy. We actually have a lot more in common than i thought. Would love to have him here to discuss things with Art

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(S. Joshua Swamidass) #5

Invite him to join us. We will ensure he is treated fairly.

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(Kenneth Turner) #6

Is it possible ID folks don’t yet know whether to count @swamidass as friend or foe? I suspect if all who accepted evolutionary science were of Josh’s ilk, there would be no need for an ID movement. Yet, b/c his approach is heterodox to mainstream ID teaching, he’s not “in the camp.”

Perhaps the ID camp needs to be given a little grace and space to figure out their posture toward a pretty novel and nuanced approach. In turn, I hope they would find it worthy to participate in honest dialogue.

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(S. Joshua Swamidass) #7

@deuteroKJ this seems to be exactly the situation. It is easy to misinterpret their posts as attacks. More charitably, they are probing me and trying to figure us out. From private conversations, I’m convinced it is the later.

They may ultimately not be able to come this way with us. To do so, they are going to have to give up a lot of things they care about. However, just like everyone else, many people in the ID movement are not happy with the current equilibrium. I think we need a better way, A Secular-Confessional Society that dignifies public confession and defangs the scientific debate.

The will have to decide how they will respond. It will take them time. Talking to scholars under 40 in the ID movement, it seems like a very large proportion would go this way with us. Some of the older ones are adaptable, but some also will struggle to change course. Time, I think, is on our side. A New Generation Wants a Better Way

For that reason, holding of the ridicule helps. I opens a way for them to back off of a bad approach with dignity. We should give then as much space as they need to do this.

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(Kenneth Turner) #8

@swamidass have you ever reached out to Behe personally? I finally got to meet him this summer as we were both speakers for Summit Ministries, through which I also befriend Sean McDowell years ago (among others pertinent players to the faith/science discussion). I can’t imagine Behe would be fundamentally opposed to what you’re doing…but I could be wrong.

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(S. Joshua Swamidass) #9

Sean McDowell has become a good friend. I’ve corresponded with Behe since 1998, so 20 years now.

Oppose is the wrong word. Unwilling to engage is the right way to put it.

He has a lot to lose. I imagine he is in legacy mode right now, but his argument is in shambles (Which Irreducible Complexity Argument?). He is a very kind man, and he does well in dialogue for this reason. We would treat him very well here, but it would also likely expose the gaps in his work. I can see why he does not want to participate.

That, and also he wants to keep a secular image. He does not like that I talk about theology all the time.

I wonder if Summit will ever warm up to me. Apologetics types have usually been very anti BioLogos, and pro-ID. But I’m not with BioLogos now, and becoming accepted by some of the heavy weights. Maybe it is worth asking about. What do you think they would say?

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(Kenneth Turner) #10

I’m definitely willing to ask. I’m close to the all the admin. In fact I just returned from teaching for their semester program. They certainly made a decisive move to ID (based on their invited speakers) from a partial-YEC/partial-ID sort of stance in the past. It probably has more to do with individuals than set positions. They’ve kindly tolerated me, even when a few students/parents have expressed concern over things I’ve said on the issue. Their overall spirit is good and positive.

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(S. Joshua Swamidass) #11

I’m a headliner for one of their peers, Faith Ascent. They trust me so much to be the keynote of theirfundraising banquet, which includes YEC and ID homeschoolers.

https://faithascentministries.com/dinner/

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(Kenneth Turner) #12

Ha ha! See, it’s really more about the individual than the set position. I’m really glad you get this opportunity. Summit and affiliates are in the right direction as far as apologetics goes. You won’t sign off on everything, but their overall direction and intent is positive.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #13

FaithAscent isn’t with Summit though :smile:. So I hope you make a connection there for me. I’m sure that Sean McDowell and WLC would endorse me too.

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