# Intelligent Design and Common Descent

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Science, Design\
**Created:** [November 1, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536 "2018-11-01T14:24:09Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/41 "2018-11-02T16:54:52Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> No, Behe is really agnostic on common descent. He sees evidence for and against common descent and pretty much has the same position that Ann appears to.

In “Darwin’s Black Box” he says:

> I find the idea of common descent (that all organisms share a common ancestor) fairly convincing, and have no particular reason to doubt it.

Has he changed his position since then?

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**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/42 "2018-11-02T17:14:26Z")

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@colewd

Bill, you write: “No, Behe is really agnostic on common descent. He  
sees evidence for and against common descent and pretty much has the  
same position that Ann appears to.”

I seem to recall some folks pleading that Behe does not propose  
Creation is a series of special creations, with God periodically  
“poofing” a new “kind” or “species” into existence without any attempt  
to guide evolution itself.

And yet this seems to be @agauger 's very position!

@jongarvey, could you tap @Eddie’s shoulder and ask him to weigh in?  
Tell him something amazing has happened… tell him @gbrooks9 wants to  
hear his opinion! 😃

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/43 "2018-11-02T17:23:34Z")

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George  
At 1hr and 23 minutes you can hear a discussion I had with him on common descent. He believes it explains the similarities but not the differences. I think Mike Ann and I are basically in the same place on this subject.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/44 "2018-11-02T17:43:51Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> George  
> At 1hr and 23 minutes you can hear a discussion I had with him on common descent. He believes it explains the similarities but not the differences. I think Mike Ann and I are basically in the same place on this subject.

I may have referenced it before, but @glipsnort has a great article over at BioLogos where he demonstrates that common descent and known mechanisms of natural mutagenesis explain the differences.

[https://biologos.org/blogs/guest/testing-common-ancestry-its-all-about-the-mutations](https://biologos.org/blogs/guest/testing-common-ancestry-its-all-about-the-mutations)

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/45 "2018-11-02T17:46:21Z")

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I have read this and this article was exactly what I was referring to. I have some issues with his analysis so discussing this would be interesting going forward.

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**Author:** ![Frankie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@Frankie](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Frankie)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/46 "2018-11-02T18:05:07Z")

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This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/47 "2018-11-02T18:26:10Z")

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> [@Frankie](#):
>
> That is your opinion but it isn’t shared by geneticists. Dr Denton has written a ton on this very subject. He says that DNA does not determine form and has the research to back it up.

Then let’s see the research.

> [@Frankie](#):
>
> No, the fact that it is true makes it true. Read “Why Is A Fly Not a Horse?”

If you have read it, why don’t you discuss the science here?

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/48 "2018-11-02T18:40:36Z")

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> [@Joe Gallien AKA Frankie](#):
>
> That is your opinion but it isn’t shared by geneticists

Joe you’ve been posting the same empty claims on science boards now for almost 2 decades. What makes you think your boasting will convince anyone with a real science education now?

Joe do you think it’s honest for you sneak back into Peaceful Science with the sock puppet “Frankie” after you were banned for posting obscenities against Dr. Swamidass?

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/49 "2018-11-02T18:54:38Z")

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> [@Agauger](#):
>
> The nylonase gene was a poster child for this attitude.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> There’s a lot of other evidence, though, isn’t there?

> [@Agauger](#):
>
> They disagree with Doug Axe’s estimate for the rarity of functional protein folds in sequence space.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Yes, because it is based on a tiny sample, ignoring vast amounts of evidence (including ours), and questionable assumptions. That is not a solid foundation for a globally negative claim.

As someone outside of the field, the entire nylonase back-and-forth over the years has gotten confusing to me. It has definitely become a hot-button issue—and one which a lot of anti-evolutionists like to talk about because they think it is another “failed” argument. Is there a good article which provides a “nylonase controversy scoreboard” so that someone like me can assess where the debate stands at this point?

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**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/50 "2018-11-02T19:01:12Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> At 1hr and 23 minutes you can hear a discussion I had with him on common descent. He believes it explains the similarities but not the differences.

That doesn’t change the fact that he seems to accept common descent. He doesn’t sound agnostic on it at all. It depends what you mean by common descent “explains” things, but I don’t think it’s controversial that common descent doesn’t “explain” derived states.

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**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/51 "2018-11-02T19:04:47Z")

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At 1:28:00 you mentioned a couple of papers on alternative splicing and expression timing between humans and chimps that you think indicate separate ancestry. Can you link those?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/52 "2018-11-02T19:07:44Z")

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> [@evograd](#):
>
> That doesn’t change the fact that he seems to accept common descent. He doesn’t sound agnostic on it at all. It depends what you mean by common descent “explains” things, but I don’t think it’s controversial that common descent doesn’t “explain” derived states.

I think I understand what you are saying. If you define common descent in a certain (limited) way almost everyone accepts it.

He would be agnostic on the claim that all life’s diversity came about through common descent from a single ancestor which is a claim that is fading away in my opinion as guys like T it call a red herring.

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/53 "2018-11-02T19:11:41Z")

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The “Trick Shot” analogy sounds a lot like multiverse explanations: in some universe there is a trick shot resulting in design.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/54 "2018-11-02T19:16:05Z")

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> [@evograd](#):
>
> At 1:28:00 you mentioned a couple of papers on alternative splicing and expression timing between humans and chimps that you think indicate separate ancestry. Can you link those?

[https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1230612](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1230612)

This is paywalled but I can send you PDF if you do not have free access.

Shipiro’s paper will take an email search.

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**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/55 "2018-11-02T19:17:30Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I think I understand what you are saying. If you define common descent in a certain (limited) way almost everyone accepts it.

What definition is that?

> [@colewd](#):
>
> He would be agnostic on the claim that all life’s diversity came about through common descent from a single ancestor which is a claim that is fading away in my opinion as guys like T it call a red herring.

What does it mean for diversity to “come about through common descent”? Common descent isn’t the “cause” of derived (diverse) traits. It’s the background to it.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/56 "2018-11-02T19:19:58Z")

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> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> The “Trick Shot” analogy sounds a lot like multiverse explanations: in some universe there is a trick shot resulting in design.

Sure. Yet with infinite multiverses and infinite possibilities God can spontaneously come into existence 🙂

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/57 "2018-11-02T19:23:35Z")

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> [@evograd](#):
>
> What definition is that?

Dr. Harshman claims common descent explains the similarities. If this is what common descent explains then we all agree.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/58 "2018-11-02T19:24:39Z")

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> [@evograd](#):
>
> What does it mean for diversity to “come about through common descent”? Common descent isn’t the “cause” of derived (diverse) traits. It’s the background to it.

I am not sure what you mean here.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/59 "2018-11-02T19:26:47Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Dr. Harshman claims common descent explains the similarities. If this is what common descent explains then we all agree.

I originally asked whether Behe accepted common descent or not. That has nothing to do with what CD “explains”. You responded that he was “agnostic” on CD, and then started talking about what CD “explains”.

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**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/intelligent-design-and-common-descent/2536/60 "2018-11-02T19:28:36Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> This is paywalled but I can send you PDF if you do not have free access.

I have access. In the video you said something along the lines of “half of human alternative splicing is different in chimpanzees”, right?

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