# Introducing Jeffb

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Tags:** Introduction\
**Created:** [November 25, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570 "2020-11-25T19:11:22Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/84 "2020-12-18T18:19:33Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> This would be a good excercise to do. The way you’d get started is by:
> 
> 1. Get a list of items for which you want to construct a phylogeny, and aim for at least 20 items.
> 2. Get a list of “Traits” or “attributes” for these items, being sure that there are some examples of each trait among the items, and aiming for at least 10 attributes.
> 3. Make a table which has each item as a row, and lists out the traits for that item in different columns.

At the risk of adding more confusion, would playing cards be useful in this exercise?

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**Author:** ![glipsnort](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/glipsnort/32/1541_2.png) [@glipsnort](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/glipsnort)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 6:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/85 "2020-12-18T18:47:37Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> If Talk.origins jumped off the roof, would you jump too?

 ![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/5/5ff44b5ad2ddbd301888bb9130ec7a77be737569.png)  
[https://xkcd.com/1170/](https://xkcd.com/1170/)

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/86 "2020-12-18T19:07:27Z")

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It all depends on who your friends are, doesn’t it?

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/87 "2020-12-18T20:37:56Z")

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> [@ProfBravus](#):
>
> I guess, even if your participation in the forum strongly advocates one position, I imagine your code wouldn’t. 😉

That may depend on the cleverness of his programs. 😉

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/88 "2020-12-18T20:46:31Z")

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Welcome to PS! 🙂

> [@jeffb](#):
>
> Question: Which field in our profile is displayed as our title, such as Swamidass’s “Confessing Scientist”?

Ask any moderator for help when you figure out what you want for a title. Best not to ask them on April Fool’s Day 😉

> [@jeffb](#):
>
> Just before going back to work, for fun I shaved a Mohawk.

Still 6 months before I go back. I should go Mohawk too … 🙂

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/89 "2020-12-18T21:38:34Z")

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> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> > [@jeffb](#):
> >
> > Question: Which field in our profile is displayed as our title, such as Swamidass’s “Confessing Scientist”?
> 
> Ask any moderator for help when you figure out what you want for a title. Best not to ask them on April Fool’s Day 😉

@jeffb is hereby dubbed “Friendly Mohawked YEC.”

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**Author:** ![jeffb](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jeffb/32/22795_2.png) [@jeffb](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jeffb)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/90 "2020-12-18T22:27:15Z")

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Ok, time to move on.  
You asked me three questions and I promised to give you answers, which I gave.

When I came to this site, I had a feeling there would be quite a mix of folks. Some curious, some open for dialog, some wanting debate, some attackers, and even some trolls.

You are obviously more interested in debates. I’m not. In fact, if I was paying attention I might have seen that ahead of time from this question which started it all:

> [@Coyne on the war between science and faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/coyne-on-the-war-between-science-and-faith/12756/57):
>
> > [@Coyne on the war between science and faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/coyne-on-the-war-between-science-and-faith/12756/48):
> >
> > How much of this self-study was in creationist literature?
> 
> 100% directly from Kent Hovind and Ken Ham.

You know what, I think I like that answer. From now on I’m going with that one anytime any evolutionist asks.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/91 "2020-12-18T22:43:30Z")

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> [@jeffb](#):
>
> When I came to this site, I had a feeling there would be quite a mix of folks. Some curious, some open for dialog, some wanting debate, some attackers, and even some trolls.
> 
> You are obviously more interested in debates. I’m not. In fact, if I was paying attention I might have seen that ahead of time from this question which started it all:

That makes sense to me 🙂 .

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**Author:** ![jeffb](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jeffb/32/22795_2.png) [@jeffb](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jeffb)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/93 "2020-12-18T22:54:08Z")

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It is a good thought experiment… In fact sitting here thinking about it some more, I see it’s not a good counter-argument.  
The issue here is the _closeness_ towards a tree like structure, which is statistically measurable, not just the _ability_ to create one. That’s the first time I’ve offered that ‘kitchen’ analogy. I’m definitely going to drop that one, thank you.  
You know, throwing yourself out there like I did seems risky. But it’s this kind of refinement I know I need.

@swamidass, I’m glad you joined in. I might have missed that point (sorry to the others who made it as well, too much thrown at me to catch it). Honestly I got on today with so many replies that I figured I’d just skip those, end the discussion with John and move on. I wish I had time to read all of them, but just can’t. Been a busy week, got a wife to go home to…

Again, tnx.

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**Author:** ![jeffb](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jeffb/32/22795_2.png) [@jeffb](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jeffb)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/94 "2020-12-18T22:55:18Z")

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Ha! I like it. Thanks!

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**Author:** ![ProfBravus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/profbravus/32/9712_2.png) [@ProfBravus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/ProfBravus)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/95 "2020-12-18T22:55:55Z")

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I did go mohawk-adjacent for a while… Can’t find a better photo now, but it was mohawk mullet, just kinda wide

 ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/c/c0601ac74c9f94af732a7e3031b813c0c8edae22.jpeg)

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/96 "2020-12-18T22:59:46Z")

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> [@jeffb](#):
>
> You are obviously more interested in debates. I’m not. In fact, if I was paying attention I might have seen that ahead of time from this question which started it all:

Not everyone is interested in debates, so I can completely understand where you are coming from. I hope you will come back to read some of our threads which may or may not expose you to some information you find interesting. This site also supports private messages if you want to ask questions of specific people (and make it plain to them that you aren’t looking for debate).

Good luck on your journeys, and hoping yours and ours 2021 is an improvement on the 2020 apocalypse.

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**Author:** ![ProfBravus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/profbravus/32/9712_2.png) [@ProfBravus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/ProfBravus)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/97 "2020-12-18T23:18:56Z")

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> [@jeffb](#):
>
> You are obviously more interested in debates. I’m not. In fact, if I was paying attention I might have seen that ahead of time from this question which started it all:

To be fair, I think one of your first contributions was a flat but unsupported contradiction of a comment I made that the evidence doesn’t support a global flood. I guess it’s **possible** to toss rhetorical grenades without follow-up, but I’m not sure how productive it is. (Text is awful at conveying tone: I’m going for wryly amused, not hostile!)

Certainly avoiding a debate structure makes sense: I don’t think it’s especially effective as a means of finding truth or testing propositions.

So making a single long, clear post in which you lay out the case for (or against) something, which seems to be your preferred mode (please correct me if I’m wrong), has a place, I think… but there may still be a need to clarify issues and ideas or respond to critiques, unless your writing is a **lot** more perfect than mine!

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/98 "2020-12-18T23:59:42Z")

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> [@jeffb](#):
>
> The issue here is the _closeness_ towards a tree like structure, which is statistically measurable, not just the _ability_ to create one.

That’s right. And it turns out that it’s usually impossible to put most designed things into a tree, without their being lots of traits that randomly, with out good reason, do not fit tree.

You can drop the kitchen analogy if you like, and use play cards, vehicles, planes, or whatever you like.

Biology ends up different because most the features will fit the tree very closely. We don’t expect it to fit perfectly, so there are exceptions, and it turns out the exceptions make sense based on known and observable mechanisms.

Of course God could have created everything to fit a tree de novo, but there isn’t a good reason why he would. So the phylogenetic tree of life isn’t evidence against de novo creation, and it isn’t the whole story, but it certainly is evidence for common descent.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/99 "2020-12-19T00:05:30Z")

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> [@jeffb](#):
>
> You are obviously more interested in debates.

Not really. I’m interested in two things: finding out how you justify your creationism scientifically, and in trying to convince you that your justification is wrong, which it is. Is that debate? Not as I see it. And you could benefit from an examination of your reasons.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/100 "2020-12-19T00:07:12Z")

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Easy there tiger. Give him some time and some space.

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**Author:** ![glipsnort](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/glipsnort/32/1541_2.png) [@glipsnort](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/glipsnort)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/105 "2020-12-19T14:39:07Z")

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> [@ProfBravus](#):
>
> but it was mohawk mullet, just kinda wide

Now I may have nightmares…

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**Author:** ![jeffb](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jeffb/32/22795_2.png) [@jeffb](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jeffb)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/106 "2020-12-19T18:11:05Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Not everyone is interested in debates, so I can completely understand where you are coming from.

Well normally I can handle a little debate (although I much prefer dialogs), I just wasn’t prepared for a more full debate. Plus, there are certain things that occur during a dialog which make me lose interest in continuing it (I’ll purposely remain vague there). Looking back, as this particular conversation grew, I started withdrawing interest in it, and started paying attention less, and in the process almost missed a good learning point. But thankfully @swamidass jumped in. I’m certainly willing to listen to him (btw, apologies to the rest of you who, now that I recall I think might have been saying the same thing).

BTW I do find it was odd that I “checked out” so early in that discussion. Normally I’m better at “eating the meat and throwing out the bone. In fact, during all my research on challenges to creation, I had to learn how to filter out a jab or insult in order to read or listen anyway. I really have to do that with Aron Ra (as you can imagine). My attitude is: despite his insults, I want to hear what he has to say.

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> I hope you will come back to read some of our threads which may or may not expose you to some information you find interesting.

I’m always open to learning. I’ll try to scan through these. But really, in hind-sight, I’d like to “scrap that first entry from the record”. It was pretty slopy. I just threw it together off the top of my head, and apparently wasn’t ready for ‘peer review’. Some of it I hadn’t reviewed in a while.

I think I’ll try to take a little more time on these topics and but forth a better response. Which BTW means going back and listening to AronRa videos again. He’s so pleasant for us creationists to listen to 😊. Plus I have a good book on this I want to review, but is hidden in the attic somewhere (I just tried looking). So…again it’s been a while since I studied _phylogenies_, but now might be a good time for review.

How does that sound? And btw, I hope there’s not a tight deadline on getting my homework in. Family comes in town tonight for the holidays…

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**Author:** ![jeffb](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jeffb/32/22795_2.png) [@jeffb](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jeffb)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/107 "2020-12-19T18:12:07Z")

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> [@ProfBravus](#):
>
> I guess it’s **possible** to toss rhetorical grenades without follow-up, but I’m not sure how productive it is.

True. Not the best style. I know at some point those need to be followed up on.

> [@ProfBravus](#):
>
> Certainly avoiding a debate structure makes sense: I don’t think it’s especially effective as a means of finding truth or testing propositions.

I think for me, it’s not the structure I avoid as much as it’s certain personalities.

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**Author:** ![AlanFox](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/alanfox/32/3495_2.png) [@AlanFox](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AlanFox)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/introducing-jeffb/12570/108 "2020-12-19T19:08:33Z")

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Not to speak of the cultural appropriation. ☹

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