# Investigating Tour's Misrepresentations
**URL:** https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069
**Category:** Side Conversation
**Created:** [May 5, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069 "2019-05-05T19:09:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Jim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jim)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/1 "2019-05-05T19:09:23Z")
Continuing the discussion from [Comments on Tour Apologizes to Sostack](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-tour-apologizes-to-sostack/6052/30):
> [@Comments on Tour Apologizes to Sostack](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-tour-apologizes-to-sostack/6052/30):
>
> Dr. Gary Hurd wrote a detailed analysis of Tour’s misrepresentations and outright lies here.
>
> [James Tour: The Mystery of the Origin of Life](https://stonesnbones.blogspot.com/2019/04/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html)
OK. I’ll look it over and get back to you.
---
### Author:  [@Jim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jim)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/2 "2019-05-07T03:05:13Z")
Quote from article. “The truth is that the illustration showed the structure of glyceraldehyde. This is the core of all sugar on Earth. This is undergraduate chemistry. This is the molecular structure James Tour insisted did not exist. This undergraduate level chemistry!”
@Timothy_Horton From what I can tell this is not true. According to what I read glyceraldehyde is C3H6O3. There is no hydrogen listed in the illustration, only oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorous. What Tour says is the chemical composition is not that of any sugar he’s aware of, and it seems he’s correct. I must admit for a social scientist to claim he knows more about chemistry than a renowned chemist seems a bit of a stretch.
Actually from glancing through the article Hurd doesn’t seem to be objective in his criticisms but seems bent on painting as bad of a picture of Tour as he can get away with. Just my impression. Setting that aside, my main interest is in the portion between 14:00 and 40:00 where the core of the evidence is discussed which Hurd completely skips over.
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### Author:  [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/3 "2019-05-07T03:12:39Z")
> [@Jim](#):
>
> There is no hydrogen listed in the illustration, only oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorous.
We usually don’t depict hydrogens. They are implied.
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### Author:  [@Jim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jim)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/4 "2019-05-07T03:15:13Z")
> [@swamidass](#):
>
> We usually don’t depict hydrogen’s. They are implied.
Oh, I stand corrected.
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### Author:  [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 3:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/5 "2019-05-07T03:15:53Z")
> [@Jim](#):
>
> Quote from article. “The truth is that the illustration showed the structure of glyceraldehyde. This is the core of all sugar on Earth. This is undergraduate chemistry. This is the molecular structure James Tour insisted did not exist. This undergraduate level chemistry!”
>
> @Timothy_Horton From what I can tell this is not true. According to what I read glyceraldehyde is C3H6O3. There is no hydrogen listed in the illustration, only oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorous. What Tour says is the chemical composition is not that of any sugar he’s aware of, and it seems he’s correct. I must admit for a social scientist to claim he knows more about chemistry than a renowned chemist seems a bit of a stretch.
I see you “accidentally” omitted Dr. Hurd’s explanation for the simplified diagram
> "James Tour shows a slide at 45:20 that was a clip from Szostak’s little paper. The molecule structures are presented in a very simple manner. The core atoms are represented as colored dots, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, and Phosphorus. **Hydrogen atoms are not shown, and all chemical bonds between atoms are represented by simple lines.** The actual professional publication of this chemical reaction pathway is “Prebiotic synthesis of simple sugars by photoredox systems chemistry”
That wasn’t a very honest thing to do, now was it?
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### Author:  [@Jim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jim)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/6 "2019-05-07T03:19:04Z")
> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> That wasn’t a very honest thing to do, now was it?
Sorry, I didn’t read in detail. Just kind of glanced at it. My mistake. 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 3:21am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/7 "2019-05-07T03:21:44Z")
> [@Jim](#):
>
> Sorry, I didn’t read in detail. Just kind of glanced at it. My mistake.
OK. Do you understand now Dr. Hurd is correct in his assessment it was Tour, your “renowned chemist” who was lying?
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### Author:  [@Jim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jim)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/8 "2019-05-07T16:14:06Z")
I concede it seems he is correct about his assessment regarding the simple sugars. I haven’t examined the rest of the article in detail so that’s about all I can comment on at the moment.
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### Author:  [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/9 "2019-05-07T17:01:30Z")
There’s so many threads on this topic, I don’t know which to post this in. Moderators feel free to move it to another thread if you think it’s more appropriate.
Here’s the video @Gary_Hurd mentioned was coming (I haven’t watched it yet):
---
### Author:  [@Gary\_Hurd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Gary_Hurd)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/10 "2019-05-07T20:28:02Z")
I hope you like it.
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### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/11 "2019-05-07T21:34:52Z")
> [@Jim](#):
>
> I concede it seems he is correct about his assessment regarding the simple sugars. I haven’t examined the rest of the article in detail so that’s about all I can comment on at the moment.
You saw the graphics about cyanide derivatives, and the RNA nucleotide strictures also?
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### Author:  [@Jim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jim)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2019, 2:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/12 "2019-05-08T02:15:25Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> You saw the graphics about cyanide derivatives, and the RNA nucleotide strictures also?
I saw them but I didn’t really look at that part very carefully. So I guess if you’re asking if I looked at them close enough to understand that part, no.
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### Author:  [@Jim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jim)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/13 "2019-05-16T03:31:35Z")
I could be wrong but it seems it would be better if social scientists do not try to dabble in fields that they aren’t really qualified in especially when trying to correct someone who is. Here is [Tour’s explanation](http://www.jmtour.com/wp-content/uploads/John-West-on-Szostak-Article.pdf) of the problem with the simple sugars diagram along with other issues he addresses. I’m assuming since Szostak himself agreed with Tour that the diagram was wrong, that there would be nothing further to say about that particular issue, except for maybe some confessions from some who were a little too quick to jump to conclusions.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_Hurd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Gary_Hurd)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 4:05am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/14 "2019-05-16T04:05:10Z")
I was ‘alerted’
My undergraduate research fellowships at the University of California were in nuclear chemistry. I had ordinary course work in general, organic, and biochemistry. I had as many graduate student hours in chemistry as anthropology. I was an industrial polymer chemist after my doctorate. I preferred medical research and teaching, and I was a professor of medicine until 1985.
In fact, the claims Tour made about the 2 1/2 page popular item were lies. This is simple fact. This is why the Disco’tute, and James Tour are freaking out trying to get their dupes and stooges to attack the “social scientist.”
Instead, read the facts;
> **[Stones and Bones](https://stonesnbones.blogspot.com/2019/04/normal-0-false-false-false-en-us-x-none.html)**
>
> James Tour: The Mystery of the Origin of Life James Tour is a professional chemist. His principle work area was synthetic organic ...
As it turns out, the real world is intruding, and it will probably next week before I expose the current crop of BS from John West, and James Tour.
PS: Just a personal note, I needed 2 courses for a BA in chemistry, but I was broke. I would have had to pay a months rent for a MS in 1975, but I was broke. My Ph.D. in 1976 was delayed for 2 months because I owed the Big U $250. And I was broke. My first real checks were from the industrial chemistry job in 1977.
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### Author:  [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 2:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/15 "2019-05-16T14:12:39Z")
> [@Jim](#):
>
> I could be wrong but it seems it would be better if social scientists do not try to dabble in fields that they aren’t really qualified in especially when trying to correct someone who is. Here is [Tour’s explanation](http://www.jmtour.com/wp-content/uploads/John-West-on-Szostak-Article.pdf) of the problem with the simple sugars diagram along with other issues he addresses.
> [@Gary\_Hurd](#):
>
> My undergraduate research fellowships at the University of California were in nuclear chemistry. I had ordinary course work in general, organic, and biochemistry. I had as many graduate student hours in chemistry as anthropology. I was an industrial polymer chemist after my doctorate. I preferred medical research and teaching, and I was a professor of medicine until 1985.
I think that Jim has some retracting and apologizing to do.
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### Author:  [@vjtorley](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/vjtorley)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/16 "2019-05-16T15:56:17Z")
James Tour’s take, from the [conclusion](http://www.jmtour.com/wp-content/uploads/John-West-on-Szostak-Article.pdf) of his letter to John West:
> We are nowhere close to cracking the OOL problem, as I said in my lecture. And if
> someone suggests otherwise—I think they are incorrect. I am not just saying OOL is a
> hard problem. I am saying we are nowhere close to solving it because we are
> neglecting the fundamentals that need to be addressed—like the fundamentals that I
> addressed in my Dallas lecture. And even with all the great work by Sutherland, and
> the citations by Szostak, we are nowhere close to a solution.
@Gary_Hurd and @Mercer, do you disagree, and if so, why?
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### Author:  [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/17 "2019-05-16T15:59:14Z")
I agree (and most should) with most of it except the bolded part.
> [@vjtorley](#):
>
> We are nowhere close to cracking the OOL problem, as I said in my lecture. And if
> someone suggests otherwise—I think they are incorrect. I am not just saying OOL is a
> hard problem. I am saying we are nowhere close to solving it **because we are**
> **neglecting the fundamentals that need to be addressed—like the fundamentals that I**
> **addressed in my Dallas lecture**. And even with all the great work by Sutherland, and
> the citations by Szostak, we are nowhere close to a solution.
Everyone should agree we are not close to solving OOL. We are not.
However, that bolded part seems, in my opinion, to be under great dispute. I respect Tour a great deal, but the exchange I’m watching seems like he and OOL field are talking past one another.
If his only point is that OOL is not solved, and we are far from solving it, there should be no argument with him. I’m just not sure what the force of his point is beyond this.
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### Author:  [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/18 "2019-05-16T16:03:48Z")
I should also add that Tour, in my opinion, has earned the right to be heard on this, even if he is wrong on particulars. This is not an endorsement of his position, and it certainly not license to call people liars. At the same time, I think he has a right to be heard.
In fact, given Tour’s stature, I would hope that Szostack and others would respond directly to him, and publicly. Such a response might lead to some increased understanding, and perhaps even put to bed some of the mischaracterizations on both sides. I do not say this as an endorsement of any of Tour’s specific arguments. At the moment, I am speaking relationally. Tour, in my view, earned the right to be heard.
---
### Author:  [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/19 "2019-05-16T16:07:06Z")
It seems very strange for James Tour to simultaneously argue for a “moratorium” on origin of life research, as in **advocate that we should stop funding it** , and then also to say that we are far from having having solved the problem.
Well then maybe it’s time we increase funding and get more people involved?
> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I’m just not sure what the force of his point is beyond this.
He wants it to stop, the research. He wants the organizations that fund this research to stop doing so, and the people who _do_ the experiments and theorizing, either to stop doing it, or use their own money on it. Because he believes it’s a waste of time and resources because life can’t originate (“this we know from chemistry”), rather it was …_wink wink_ made supernaturally by God. He just says he doesn’t know how to prove that(that God did it), so he just wants the research to stop.
---
### Author:  [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069/20 "2019-05-16T16:11:49Z")
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Because he believes it’s a waste of time and resources because life can’t originate (“this we know from chemistry”), rather it was … _wink wink_ made supernaturally by God.
Having talked to him about this directly, I think this is not really what is going on. I could be wrong, but that is not how I read him.
> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> It seems very strange for James Tour to simultaneously argue for a “moratorium” on origin of life research, as in **advocate that we should stop funding it** , and then also to say that we are far from having having solved the problem.
I think he believes all the current OOL work is totally misdirected. He wants people to acknowledge this, and rethink their approach.
Maybe he is right (who knows really?), but even if he is, a moratorium is not the right way to fix it. Increasing funding, also, is not the right way. Science takes time. We need brilliant insight and a lot of work.
[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/investigating-tours-misrepresentations/6069.md?page=2)