# Is Functional Information Functional?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [September 19, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887 "2019-09-19T19:25:02Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/1 "2019-09-19T19:25:02Z")

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If you look at the argument here comments 150 and beyond. Rum and Art are arguing for not being able to measure FI and Art and particular is arguing for a very low bit count of prp8 at 70 bits. They both realize 500 bits is a formable challenge.

> [@Create a Protein with Your Mind](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/create-a-protein-with-your-mind/7655):
>
> So Bill, can you please type out a functional protein sequence without knowing it beforehand? Just design it de novo with your mind? Can I tell you what I want it to do, and then you can just sort of think it up and it will work?

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/2 "2019-09-19T19:33:23Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/62):
>
> As to whether Rum changed his position that is up in the air as his position may have changed and his explanation does not account for the origin of the 500 bits.

In my experience, those 500 bits are due to accumulation of single mutations over time. I don’t see why evolution couldn’t do that.

Here is an interesting exchange I had with gpuccio in a different thread:

> [@](#):
>
> T\_aquaticus: From my understanding, the FI calculation for ubiquitin includes all of the sequence variation seen in different species. Is that correct?
> 
> If we take all of that variation away and look at just pre-ubiquitin, a single mutation, and functional ubiquitin, what would the FI measurement be?
> 
> gpuccio: The change in FI would be about 4.3 bits, at most, if I understand well what you are asking.  
> [Comments on Gpuccio: Functional Information Methodology](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/comments-on-gpuccio-functional-information-methodology/7560)

This was rather enlightening. If gpuccio went back in time and saw the first ubiquitin protein come about through a single substitution mutation he would calculate that as a 4.3 bit change in information. Not 500. 4.3.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/3 "2019-09-19T20:06:40Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/64):
>
> This was rather enlightening. If gpuccio went back in time and saw the first ubiquitin protein come about through a single substitution mutation he would calculate that as a 4.3 bit change in information. Not 500. 4.3.

How hilarious. Shouldn’t he be saying that we need to wait 400 million years before we start estimating the FI for ubiquitin?

Also, if pre-ubiquitin cannot do ubiquitin’s function, and the function only emerges after one mutation in pre-ubiquitin, isn’t the number of sequences that meet the known minimal threshold for function(of ubiquitin), **one sequence?** The one being created when pre-ubiquitin mutates into ubiquitin. If _one_ sequence meets M(E\_X), then the ratio is 1 divided by all of sequence space. So the change in function is maximal for sequence length(which would be roughly 328 bits for a 76 aa protein like ubiquitin), not 4.3 bits.

He really has NO idea what he’s saying or doing.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/4 "2019-09-19T20:51:08Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/66):
>
> How hilarious. Shouldn’t he be saying that we need to wait 400 million years before we start estimating the FI for ubiquitin?
> 
> Also, if pre-ubiquitin cannot do ubiquitin’s function, and the function only emerges after one mutation in pre-ubiquitin, isn’t the number of sequences that meet the known minimal threshold for function(of ubiquitin), **one sequence?** The one being created when pre-ubiquitin mutates into ubiquitin. If _one_ sequence meets M(EX)M(E\_X) , then the ratio is 1 divided by all of sequence space. So the change in function is maximal for sequence length(which would be roughly 328 bits for a 76 aa protein like ubiquitin), not 4.3 bits.
> 
> He really has NO idea what he’s saying or doing.

Is it possible you don’t understand his argument and are misrepresenting it?

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/5 "2019-09-19T20:53:33Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/71):
>
> Is it possible you don’t understand his argument and are misrepresenting it?

Sorry Bill but given the amount of evidence presented that possibility would exceed the Universal Probability Bound. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/6 "2019-09-19T20:57:27Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/71):
>
> Is it possible you don’t understand his argument and are misrepresenting it?

Is it possible your question is an uninteresting rhetorical distraction?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 8:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/7 "2019-09-19T20:59:12Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/73):
>
> Is it possible your question is an uninteresting rhetorical distraction?

It’s also possible that I am trying to get you to understand his argument despite your arrogance. Can you figure out your error?

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/8 "2019-09-19T21:00:44Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/74):
>
> It’s also possible that I am trying to get you to understand his argument despite your arrogance. Can you figure out your error?

I haven’t made an error. Can you figure that out?

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/9 "2019-09-19T21:03:26Z")

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Hey Bill, instead of doing these vague handwavy hints that people are doing errors, or suggesting that they are “possibly” wrong, why don’t you just proceed to point out what you think the error is? These silly rhetorical questions accomplish nothing.

I don’t believe I’ve made an error. Instead of just vaguely hinting that I have, explain what the error is. Is that within your capacity?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/10 "2019-09-19T21:06:54Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/75):
>
> I haven’t made an error. Can you figure that out?

I will give gpuccio a chance to address your hypothetical counter argument. I will post it at UD. My belief is that in your hypothetical case the functional information except for 1 AA or 4.3 bits exists in the prior protein. Lets see if gpuccio agrees.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/11 "2019-09-19T21:08:48Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/77):
>
> I will give gpuccio a chance to address your hypothetical counter argument. I will post it at UD. My belief is that in your hypothetical case the functional information except for 1 AA or 4.3 bits exists in the prior protein. Lets see if gpuccio agrees.

No, let’s not see if Gpuccio agrees. Let’s see if **you** , Bill Cole, the guy who CLAIMED I made an error, can explain what you think the error is.

If you think I’ve made an error you must be able to point it out. Right? You wouldn’t _just be saying stuff_ just to do so? Right?

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/12 "2019-09-19T21:09:02Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/77):
>
> I will give gpuccio a chance to address your hypothetical counter argument. I will post it at UD. My belief is that in your hypothetical case the functional information except for 1 AA or 4.3 bits exists in the prior protein. Lets see if gpuccio agrees.

Bill admits he can’t point out an error in Rum’s analysis. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/13 "2019-09-19T21:11:34Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/79):
>
> Bill admits he can’t point out an error in Rum’s analysis. 🙂

What was that response of his but an outright admission of defeat? And yet he’s the kind of person who will just flat out declare something without actually knowing if it’s true. It is honestly pathetic.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/14 "2019-09-19T21:17:16Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/78):
>
> No, let’s not see if Gpuccio agrees. Let’s see if **you** , Bill Cole, the guy who CLAIMED I made an error, can explain what you think the error is.

I already told you that the FI came from the mutated protein in your little hypothetical. Only 4.3 bits were added as gpuccio explained to T.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/15 "2019-09-19T21:19:18Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/81):
>
> I already told you that the FI came from the mutated protein in your little hypothetical. Only 4.3 bits were added as gpuccio explained to T.

Bill you just _repeated_ what Gpuccio says. Merely reapeating his claim doesn’t make it true.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/16 "2019-09-19T21:22:00Z")

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Explain what my error is. Don’t just repeat Gpuccio’s words. Explain what error I made. Quote my words, explain how they imply or entail an error.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/17 "2019-09-19T21:25:30Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/82):
>
> Bill you just _repeated_ what Gpuccio says. Merely reapeating his claim doesn’t make it true.

Rum this explanation is consistent with his methods if you understand them. Your making up a false narrative.

If a single mutation finds a complex function this is impossible unless the rest of the configuration had a workable sequence for the new protein. The workable sequence is the FI the old protein gives to the new protein.

If there was no FI in the prior sequence like a sequence of the same amino acids the scenario you described would not work.

I will now have to remain skeptical that you currently understand his methods.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/18 "2019-09-19T21:28:51Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/84):
>
> Rum this explanation is consistent with his methods if you understand them.

LOL! “If you disagree with my unsubstantiated claims then you just don’t understand them!”

If that’s not the Creationist theme song it’s in the top three. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/19 "2019-09-19T21:36:08Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/84):
>
> If a single mutation finds a complex function this is impossible unless the rest of the configuration had a workable sequence for the new protein. The workable sequence is the FI the old protein gives to the new protein.
> 
> If there was no FI in the prior sequence like a sequence of the same amino acids the scenario you described would not work.

IOW, if a new functional sequence arises after a single mutation, the original sequence (prior to the mutation) contains almost of the FI of the new sequence, even if it is useless junk.

I wonder if Bill can see the problem with this.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [September 19, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-functional-information-functional/7887/20 "2019-09-19T21:37:55Z")

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> [@Gpuccio: The Case of the Starry Sky is Bad Faith](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/gpuccio-the-case-of-the-starry-sky-is-bad-faith/7867/86):
>
> IOW, if a new functional sequence arises after a single mutation, the original sequence (prior to the mutation) contains almost of the FI of the new sequence, even if it is useless junk.

If the prior sequence was useless junk the scenario would not work.

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