# Is ID science? Redux

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [December 17, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063 "2019-12-17T16:22:58Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 15

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**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 11:51am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/288 "2019-12-23T11:51:36Z")

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Emphasis added:

> [@colewd](#):
>
> > [@Rumraket](#):
> >
> > > [@colewd](#):
> > >
> > > > [@Rumraket](#):
> > > >
> > > > > [@colewd](#):
> > > > >
> > > > > Sure but that’s not the theory. **A mind as a mechanistic explanation for functional information and other cellular artifacts is.**
> > > > 
> > > > Which _is_ the “ID theory” as I described it. You just wrote the exact same nonsense I said you did. As I stated, the sentence “A mind can make X” is not a scientific theory Bill. And yet despite your protestation, you go an confirm that your “theory” is exactly like this.
> > > > 
> > > > Let’s see:  
> > > > What I wrote that the ID “theory” is like: “A mind can make X”.  
> > > > Break it up like this:  
> > > > [“A mind”] [“can make”] [“X”].
> > > > 
> > > > What you wrote that the ID “theory” is like can be broken up into the same three parts: [“A mind”] [“as a mechanistic explanation for”] [“functional information and other cellular artifacts”].
> > > > 
> > > > That’s essentially the same thing.  
> > > > [“A mind”] = [“ **A mind** ”]  
> > > > [“can make”] = [“ **as a mechanistic explanation for** ”]  
> > > > [“X”] = [“ **functional information and other cellular artifacts** ”]
> > > > 
> > > > It’s completely vacuous(you lack the “mechanistic explanation”) and doesn’t rise to the level of a testable hypothesis.
> > > 
> > > Your straw man perhaps but the design hypothesis does.
> > 
> > There is no straw man. I reproduced your words faithfully, and explained how they were wrong by showing how they were saying exactly the same thing I did.
> 
> Those were not my words. You changed the argument that is called a straw man. Perhaps you don’t understand the argument.

As can be seen from the restored context, they _were_ colewd’s words.

Either colewd is lying and hopes no-one else knows how to use a scrollbar, or colewd is forgetful and doesn’t himself know how to use a scrollbar.

All I want for Christmas is for colewd to be given his own special area on PS.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/289 "2019-12-23T14:15:13Z")

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As an ardent opponent and critic of Intelligent Design Creationism, I welcome and celebrate @colewd’s active participation in this forum. His posts are as strong an argument against ID as can be.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/293 "2019-12-23T15:08:47Z")

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> [@Roy](#):
>
> Either colewd is lying and hopes no-one else knows how to use a scrollbar, or colewd is forgetful and doesn’t himself know how to use a scrollbar.

Why do you think that Rum and everyone else is changing the words I am using?

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/294 "2019-12-23T15:09:37Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Why do you think that Rum and everyone else is changing the words I am using?

Evidence please.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/296 "2019-12-23T15:12:40Z")

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> That’s essentially the same thing.  
> [“A mind”] = [“ **A mind** ”]  
> [“can make”] = [“ **as a mechanistic explanation for** ”]  
> [“X”] = [“ **functional information and other cellular artifacts** ”]

Here is an example.

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**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Burke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jonathan_burke/32/21_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Burke](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jonathan_Burke)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/297 "2019-12-23T15:13:25Z")

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How is that an example?

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/298 "2019-12-23T15:22:51Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Why do you think that Rum and everyone else is changing the words I am using?

Is that your latest excuse for dodging questions? That everyone else is changing your words?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/300 "2019-12-23T15:38:10Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> Is that your latest excuse for dodging questions?

When you are dodging the real argument by asking questions that enable your straw-man arguments I will deflect them.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/301 "2019-12-23T15:42:20Z")

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Bill are these your words or not?

> [@colewd](#):
>
> The scientific method does not require a model. It requires a hypothesis and a test.

The questions is **what is ID’s hypothesis and test** which would support your claim a mind produced physical genomes?

So you can’t claim anyone changed your words. Now will you finally answer the question? And **NO** , having human minds design things is **NOT** a test of your ID claim.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/302 "2019-12-23T15:44:26Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> TH: “Is that your latest excuse for dodging questions?”
> 
> When you are dodging the real argument by asking questions that enable your straw-man arguments I will deflect them.

OK, it is your latest lame excuse for dodging questions. Thanks for the clarification.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/303 "2019-12-23T15:45:23Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> So you can’t claim anyone changed your words. Now will you finally answer the question? And **NO** , having human minds design things is **NOT** a test of your ID claim.

This is the second thing you resort to assertion. Your claim here is your opinion and I disagree.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/304 "2019-12-23T15:46:30Z")

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> [@Jonathan\_Burke](#):
>
> How is that an example?

It’s an example of a claim that is refutable by scrollbar.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/305 "2019-12-23T15:46:41Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> This is the second thing you resort to assertion. Your claim here is your opinion and I disagree.

Bill continues his strategy of lame evasion to all questions about his ID claims. Why are you here Bill if you are going to run from all discussion about your ID position?

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/306 "2019-12-23T15:53:13Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> Bill continues his strategy of lame evasion to all questions about his ID claims. Why are you here Bill if you are going to run from all discussion about your ID position?

Tim, a real discussion is continuing to improve on alternative explanations. If you come up with a testable mechanism that can account for the micro machines we see in the cell then you will replace the design argument at least for major evolutionary transitions. Straw-man arguments and assertions are not really productive.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/307 "2019-12-23T15:55:57Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> > And **NO** , having human minds design things is **NOT** a test of your ID claim.
> 
> This is the second thing you resort to assertion. Your claim here is your opinion and I disagree.

Please explain how having a human mind using a human body and human produced tools can physically create an object supports your claim a mind with no physical body and no physical mechanism can create physical genomes from scratch.

BTW Bill work on your basic logic. Just because a human mind CAN design things is not evidence a mind DID design genomes.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/308 "2019-12-23T15:58:00Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Tim, a real discussion is continuing to improve on alternative explanations. If you come up with a testable mechanism that can account for the micro machines we see in the cell then you will replace the design argument at least for major evolutionary transitions. Straw-man arguments and assertions are not really productive.

More lame excuses and question dodging. Try answering the questions you are asked and not running like a scared bunny rabbit all the time.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/309 "2019-12-23T15:58:15Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> Please explain how having a human mind using a human body and human produced tools can physically create an object supports your claim a mind with no physical body and no physical mechanism can create physical genomes from scratch.

Again, it is vehicle to test the claim.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 4:00pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/310 "2019-12-23T16:00:06Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> TH: “Please explain how having a human mind using a human body and human produced tools can physically create an object supports your claim a mind with no physical body and no physical mechanism can create physical genomes from scratch.”
> 
> Again, it is vehicle to test the claim.

Bill runs from the question once again. Sigh.

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**Author:** ![Michael\_Callen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michael_callen/32/897_2.png) [@Michael\_Callen](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michael_Callen)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/311 "2019-12-23T16:02:03Z")

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It seems that the only theory being tested is Einstein’s definition of insanity.

This is a very good time to shut this thread down. It’s become a dead end.

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**Author:** ![Michael\_Callen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michael_callen/32/897_2.png) [@Michael\_Callen](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michael_Callen)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-id-science-redux/9063/312 "2019-12-23T16:02:19Z")

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Closed on December 23, 2019, 4:02pm UTC



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