# Is there a Design Perspective?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Design\
**Created:** [August 19, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488 "2019-08-19T23:31:37Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 15\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/21 "2019-08-20T18:21:07Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> And there’s no objective reason to accept families as kinds while rejecting Hominidae as one.

That’s the sticking point for them, or should be if they even cared about being intellectually consistent. Any reasonably inclusive definition of “kind” would group humans with at least some other primates. But if they make the term restrictive enough to include only humans, Noah would have had to cram his Ark with so many millions of “kinds” it would strain even a YECs credulity.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/22 "2019-08-20T19:03:17Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> what about a group of creatures that share a unique set of morphological traits?

That sounds a lot like cladistics. You might want to read up on synapomorphies and apomorphies.

As others have mentioned, humans share traits with other mammals which are unique to mammals, such as teats and fur.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/23 "2019-08-20T19:09:27Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> let me rephrase that: a group of creatures that share the same set of morphological traits.

I would phrase it so that ALL species with those features are in the same group. Otherwise, you are arbitrarily picking which species to include.

> [@scd](#):
>
> two species of felidae are still cats.

Two species of mammals are still mammals. Two species of tetrapods are still tetrapods. Two species of vertebrates are still vertebrates.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/24 "2019-08-20T19:12:35Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> That’s the sticking point for them, or should be if they even cared about being intellectually consistent. Any reasonably inclusive definition of “kind” would group humans with at least some other primates.

I would also suspect that the genetic distance between species within many of these design perspective based groups will be higher than the genetic distance between humans and chimps. If evolution and common ancestry can produce more genetic divergence within kinds than between humans and chimps, then they would have to accept the evolutionary mechanisms as being adequate for producing that divergence.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/25 "2019-08-20T20:51:44Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> I think their God-given intuition is correct, and subcellular biological nanomachines _are_ designed, not to mention very cool, besides.

So that hypothesis predicts that we will not find non-motor ancestors, nor any non-motor relatives, of motors, correct?

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/26 "2019-08-20T21:30:07Z")

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Good grief. You certainly extracted that question out of context and without comprehension! There is no scientific hypothesis involved, and I even said as much explicitly twice within that short paragraph, and actually gave an example saying exactly the opposite. What does the word _exaptation_ mean, that you will not find non-motor ancestors and relatives?! And were “…as a scientific model, no” and “…as a scientific model, untenable” invisible to you?

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/27 "2019-08-20T21:50:05Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> There is no scientific hypothesis involved, and I even said as much explicitly twice within that short paragraph, and actually gave an example saying exactly the opposite.

Sure there is. You saying so doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> What does the word _exaptation_ mean, that you will not find non-motor ancestors and relatives?! And were “…as a scientific model, no” and “…as a scientific model, untenable” invisible to you?

I saw them. Does their being visible mean that I must agree?

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/28 "2019-08-20T21:51:07Z")

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So no means yes. Okay.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/29 "2019-08-20T21:52:53Z")

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Please show me the hypothesis that I made that I implied was scientific and was testable.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/30 "2019-08-20T21:54:57Z")

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@DaleCutler I’m with you on this one.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/31 "2019-08-20T21:58:36Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Does their being visible mean that I must agree?

You joined the ID movement when we weren’t looking?! 😝

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**Author:** ![Rich\_Hampton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e4f/32.png) [@Rich\_Hampton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rich_Hampton)\
**Post date:** [August 20, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/32 "2019-08-20T22:06:46Z")

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with human design, we see increasing functionality, efficiency and complexity over time, eventually branching off into new designs. That’s because we start from ignorance and learn as we go.

An omnipotent designer who creates everything _ex nihilo_ would have no need to follow this pattern.

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [August 21, 2019, 10:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/33 "2019-08-21T22:42:18Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> The answer to your OP question is yes there is a **human** design perspective but no reason to apply this to non-human produced biological objects.

Good answer!

> [@scd](#):
>
> if you are talking about specific prediction so one of them will be that creatures will stay basically the same creatures even when we are dealing with millions of years.

OK, that’s a prediction! But why is this a prediction about design? Could change over millions of years also be designed??

Others have already commented on your odd claim about evolution, so I’ll let that pass.

> [@scd](#):
>
> … one interesting point is the fact that bacteria exist about 4 billion years. and they are still bacteria after all this time.

Yes bacteria still exist. Just because something new evolves _from_ bacteria doesn’t mean bacteria cease to exist. Your statement is very similar to, _“If we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?”._ Substitute bacteria for monkeys.

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> The “design perspective” is “design will look just like evolution, for no apparent reason”.

The rest of what you wrote is good too, but this nails what I was after.

> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Could there be a coherent design perspective, even if one isn’t being offered by ID now?
> 
> I think the answer is “yes.” …

Which is the sort of alternative argument I anticipated. @DaleCutler has another one:

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> As a Christian and believing in and having experienced God’s providence, I can easily infer design foresight into exaptation, for instance, any example you want to choose. But as a scientific model, no.

🙂

> [@Rich\_Hampton](#):
>
> An omnipotent designer who creates everything _ex nihilo_ would have no need to follow this pattern.

And Design advocates will occasionally claim the Designer doesn’t _need to be_ avoid those inefficiencies. But then there is no criteria for Design at all. They seem to want it both ways.

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/34 "2019-08-22T18:20:52Z")

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9 posts were split to a new topic: [Why are there still monkeys?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-are-there-still-monkeys/7526)

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-a-design-perspective/7488/35 "2019-08-22T19:06:26Z")

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2 posts were merged into an existing topic: [Why are there still monkeys?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-are-there-still-monkeys/7526/11)

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