# Is there really information being conveyed within a cell?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Created:** [December 31, 2024, 4:02am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951 "2024-12-31T04:02:01Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![VladtheDestroyer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/vladthedestroyer/32/22542_2.png) [@VladtheDestroyer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/VladtheDestroyer)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:02am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/1 "2024-12-31T04:02:01Z")

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By information I mean any physical property or characteristic of matter that is used to represent something that it is not.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:53am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/2 "2024-12-31T04:53:06Z")

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I suspect an answer to that question would _first_ require a more rigorous definition of “information”.

Welcome to the forum, btw. 🙂

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**Author:** ![sfmatheson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sfmatheson/32/22811_2.png) [@sfmatheson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/sfmatheson)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 5:21am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/3 "2024-12-31T05:21:04Z")

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> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> By information I mean…

…something that seems distinct from–if not unrelated to–the information studied and discussed by biologists. In places like this:

**The meaning of biological information**  
Eugene V. Koonin

[https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsta.2015.0065](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsta.2015.0065)

[Mod edit to add title]

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**Author:** ![misterme987](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/misterme987/32/15207_2.png) [@misterme987](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/misterme987)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 5:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/4 "2024-12-31T05:24:19Z")

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Would it be wrong to say that DNA is ordered to particular AA sequences, and is therefore “informational” in the sense that Vlad means? We can identify the AA sequence that will result from any given DNA sequence in a particular organism, and we can also recognize that a translation system is malfunctioning if it fails to produce that result. I don’t think recognizing this means conceding that ID is true, since such ‘physical intentionality’ exists all throughout nature without requiring a human-like intelligence.

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**Author:** ![sfmatheson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sfmatheson/32/22811_2.png) [@sfmatheson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/sfmatheson)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 5:46am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/5 "2024-12-31T05:46:34Z")

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> [@misterme987](#):
>
> Would it be wrong to say that DNA is ordered to particular AA sequences, and is therefore “informational” in the sense that Vlad means?

Not sure, I guess that’s a question for Vlad. He wrote “any physical property or characteristic of matter that is used to represent something that it is not” and that seems different from the well known fact of informational representations in DNA and RNA.

> [@misterme987](#):
>
> I don’t think recognizing this means conceding that ID is true

Neither do I nor does Koonin or Chris Adami who wrote an entire book about the evolution of biological information, nor should anyone who is thinking.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 6:34am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/6 "2024-12-31T06:34:22Z")

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By the definition you offer I would say no. But there are other definitions of information, so it really just depends on which one you choose.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/7 "2024-12-31T14:52:24Z")

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You need to clarify what you mean by “represent.”

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/8 "2024-12-31T15:26:05Z")

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“Used” might also be a problem.

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**Author:** ![AlanFox](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/alanfox/32/3495_2.png) [@AlanFox](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AlanFox)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 4:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/9 "2024-12-31T16:10:35Z")

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> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> …to represent something that it is not.

Sounds familiar. 🧐🤓

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**Author:** ![VladtheDestroyer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/vladthedestroyer/32/22542_2.png) [@VladtheDestroyer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/VladtheDestroyer)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/10 "2024-12-31T20:07:16Z")

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Whether or not DNA is really a code, seems to often be a point of contention between evolutionists and creationists.  
Can, for example, something in a ribosome be changed(or “reprogrammed”)so that same mRNA will now cause it to produce a different protein? Or is the output of the ribosome dependent on an unchangeable physical or chemical interaction of matter where, by law, the same “input” can only ever produce the same output?  
If it’s the latter, then no information is conveyed between the mRNA and the ribosome. There is only a physical/chemical reaction, like salt melting ice.

So, is there actually information being conveyed in a cell or is all the interplay involved in cellular processes merely the result of pre-existing laws of physical/chemical reaction? Or do we not know?

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**Author:** ![VladtheDestroyer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/vladthedestroyer/32/22542_2.png) [@VladtheDestroyer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/VladtheDestroyer)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/11 "2024-12-31T20:07:25Z")

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Why?

(Thanks for your welcome btw)

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**Author:** ![VladtheDestroyer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/vladthedestroyer/32/22542_2.png) [@VladtheDestroyer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/VladtheDestroyer)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/12 "2024-12-31T20:07:45Z")

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Would it be correct to say that the definition I am using is actually the correct one to use, when questioning, say, whether or not DNA actually conveys information to a ribosome? And that the meaning of biological information as detailed in Koonin’s paper linked above is more or less just a fancy way of saying that DNA might look like a code to _us_ but it is not really a code because there is no information conveyed in the manner described in my OP?

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 6:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/13 "2025-01-01T18:55:40Z")

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> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> Would it be correct to say that the definition I am using is actually the correct one to use, when questioning, say, whether or not DNA actually conveys information to a ribosome?

I don’t think there is really a “correct” definition to employ. I’d rather say different definitions are more or less useful for a given problem.

The definition of information I prefer for cases in molecular biology (such as translation and other biochemical functions), simply because it’s the one that makes the most intuitive sense to me, is [Hazen et al. 2007](https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0701744104). I like this one because it makes sense of biological information in terms of the functions biological molecules and entities perform, and the degree to which they perform them. It makes it possible to say (and in principle calculate) how much information it takes to specify a particular function, and how much more, or less, information it would take to increase or decrease the degree of function.

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 6:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/14 "2025-01-01T18:56:25Z")

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> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> Would it be correct to say that the definition I am using is actually the correct one to use, when questioning, say, whether or not DNA actually conveys information to a ribosome?

Information is abstract. From my perspective as a mathematician and fictionalist, this implies that information doesn’t actually exist. It’s just a useful way of talking about something else (such as causation).

There isn’t any good answer to the question in your title. It all depends on how you are using the word “information”.

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**Author:** ![VladtheDestroyer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/vladthedestroyer/32/22542_2.png) [@VladtheDestroyer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/VladtheDestroyer)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 6:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/15 "2025-01-01T18:57:01Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> You need to clarify what you mean by “represent.”

I mean just in the normal way. For example, the kinetic energy of mercury can be used to _represent_ the temperature in my living room once a value has been assigned to it’s rate of thermal expansion.

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**Author:** ![sfmatheson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sfmatheson/32/22811_2.png) [@sfmatheson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/sfmatheson)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 6:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/16 "2025-01-01T18:57:53Z")

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> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> Can, for example, something in a ribosome be changed(or “reprogrammed”)so that same mRNA will now cause it to produce a different protein?

Yes. I think it’s more commonly done by changing the tRNA, but ribosomes can be retooled in a process called… wait for it… recoding. Here’s a recent review of the topic:

[https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/48/3/1056/5568211](https://academic.oup.com/nar/article/48/3/1056/5568211)

> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> Or is the output of the ribosome dependent on an unchangeable physical or chemical interaction of matter where, by law, the same “input” can only ever produce the same output?

Clearly not.

> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> So, is there actually information being conveyed in a cell or is all the interplay involved in cellular processes merely the result of pre-existing laws of physical/chemical reaction?

I can’t even imagine how one would argue that these are mutually exclusive.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 6:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/17 "2025-01-01T18:58:50Z")

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> [@Tim](#):
>
> I suspect an answer to that question would _first_ require a more rigorous definition of “information”.

> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> Why?

> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> By information I mean any physical property or characteristic of matter that is used to represent something that it is not.

As @Faizal_Ali and @John_Harshman have already suggested, “represented” and “used” are problematical.

Taking DNA as an example (in a fertilised ovum for example), does it “represent” the adult form of an organism? Or is it merely a ‘blueprint’ for _constructing_ that organism? Is a recipe a ‘representation’ of the final dish?

Is the DNA in a fertilised ovum “represent[ing] something that it is not” when the adult form also contains that same DNA?

This is _disanalogous_ to, for example, da Vinci’s representation of the Mona Lisa, which contains only paint (on canvas), not the target’s DNA.

Such disanalogies mean that we have to take _extreme care_ in applying language developed to describe human artifice to the realm of biology.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![VladtheDestroyer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/vladthedestroyer/32/22542_2.png) [@VladtheDestroyer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/VladtheDestroyer)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 6:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/18 "2025-01-01T18:59:25Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> “Used” might also be a problem.

A problem for what?

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 7:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/19 "2025-01-01T19:57:44Z")

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> [@sfmatheson](#):
>
> …something that seems distinct from–if not unrelated to–the information studied and discussed by biologists. In places like this:
> 
> **The meaning of biological information**  
> Eugene V. Koonin
> 
> [https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsta.2015.0065](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsta.2015.0065)

That’s good paper, and a reasonable definition of biological meaning.

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 8:16pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-really-information-being-conveyed-within-a-cell/16951/20 "2025-01-01T20:16:20Z")

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> [@VladtheDestroyer](#):
>
> Whether or not DNA is really a code, seems to often be a point of contention between evolutionists and creationists.

DNA is chemistry, and the only meaningful encoding are the laws of chemistry. This is unlike any sort of computer coding, which is the usual bone of contention.

A better analogy is to a recipe, with DNA providing a list of what ingredients that get thrown in a pot for the laws of chemistry to stir. This analogy is also flawed, but it discards the idea of fixed linear instructions typical of computer code.

AND welcome to the forum. 🤠

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