# Is There Value in Ridicule?

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [October 5, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102 "2018-10-05T15:45:39Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/1 "2018-10-05T15:45:39Z")

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> [@What is the Value of Peaceful Science?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/what-is-the-value-of-peaceful-science/2013/20):
>
> I would like to see fewer gratuitous digs at ID. I’d also like to see less mischaracterization of what ID supporters believe.

Well work to get ID views across clearly for everybody to understand. Take responsibility to explain the ID viewpoint. And yes expect criticism, even ridicule if you are unable to articulate clearly the ID arguments.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/2 "2018-10-05T15:49:11Z")

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> [@What is the Value of Peaceful Science?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/what-is-the-value-of-peaceful-science/2013/21):
>
> And yes expect criticism, even ridicule if you are unable to articulate clearly the ID arguments.

The ridicule helps nothing and no one.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/3 "2018-10-05T16:38:35Z")

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> [@What is the Value of Peaceful Science?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/what-is-the-value-of-peaceful-science/2013/22):
>
> The ridicule helps nothing and no one.

Blasphemy, mockery and ridicule of all religions is important for Human reasoning to advance and spread. Christopher Hitchens explains it well why ridicule of beliefs is important.

[![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3sFg8-1qTw)

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**Author:** ![Djordje](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/djordje/32/3673_2.png) [@Djordje](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Djordje)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/4 "2018-10-05T17:03:25Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Blasphemy, mockery and ridicule of all religions is important for Human reasoning to advance and spread.

I just have one question: what if one of those religions is true?

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**Author:** ![jongarvey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jongarvey/32/5_2.png) [@jongarvey](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jongarvey)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/5 "2018-10-05T17:13:38Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Blasphemy, mockery and ridicule of all religions is important for Human reasoning to advance and spread. Christopher Hitchens explains it well why ridicule of beliefs is important.

Seems to me modern America is a prime example of how mockery and ridicule are actually destroying reason.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/6 "2018-10-05T17:15:53Z")

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> [@Djordje](#):
>
> I just have one question: what if one of those religions is true?

Which one? Are we limited to just these three? Since they are mutually contradictory, all three can’t be true. And even within each of these three religions, there is tremendous divisiveness within each - Sunni/Shia Islam, Catholic/Protestant Christianity and Orthodox/Conservative/Reformed Judaism. And even within those subdivisions there is divisiveness and fundamental disagreement about how one is suppose to live. All religions are fundamentally divisive and against free thinking free reasoning people.

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**Author:** ![Djordje](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/djordje/32/3673_2.png) [@Djordje](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Djordje)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/7 "2018-10-05T17:17:10Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Which one? Are we limited to just these three? Since they are mutually contradictory, all three can’t be true. And even within each of these three religions, there is tremendous divisiveness within each - Sunni/Shia Islam, Catholic/Protestant Christianity and Orthodox/Conservative/Reformed Judaism. And even within those subdivisions there is divisiveness and fundamental disagreement about how one is suppose to live. All religions are fundamentally divisive and against free thinking free reasoning people.

Either one, your pick.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/8 "2018-10-05T17:17:23Z")

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> [@jongarvey](#):
>
> Seems to me modern America is a prime example of how mockery and ridicule are actually destroying reason.

This I agree with you on.

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**Author:** ![jongarvey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jongarvey/32/5_2.png) [@jongarvey](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jongarvey)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/9 "2018-10-05T17:18:33Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> This I agree with you on.

Then the thread is concluded in the negative. QED.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/10 "2018-10-05T17:21:22Z")

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> [@Djordje](#):
>
> Either one, your pick.

I pick Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard. Nevermind, he was a just a con artist. How about the Church of the Giant Spaghetti Monster Religion. I love pasta, so what can go wrong believing that the Spaghetti monster loves us and will save us?

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**Author:** ![Djordje](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/djordje/32/3673_2.png) [@Djordje](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Djordje)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/11 "2018-10-05T17:23:44Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> I pick Scientology. L. Ron Hubbard. Nevermind, he was a just a con artist. How about the Church of the Giant Spaghetti Monster Religion. I love pasta, so what can go wrong believing that the Spaghetti monster loves us and will save us?

Fine, then. Can you demonstrate to me that all of those religions are false, that there is no God?

Whether that be a Judeo-Christian God, one of the Hindu gods or a Deist God?

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**Author:** ![Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mung](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mung)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/12 "2018-10-05T17:24:15Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> And yes expect criticism, even ridicule if you are unable to articulate clearly the ID arguments.

If I am unable to clearly articulate an argument I need help, not ridicule.

One of the rules of good argumentation is to put forth the best version of your opponents argument that you can. So it is the ID opponents who need to work on their ability to articulate ID arguments. I promise not to heap scorn on you while you work at that. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/13 "2018-10-05T17:26:16Z")

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> [@jongarvey](#):
>
> Then the thread is concluded in the negative. QED.

Not so fast, cowboy. The present situation in America will change, I think that reason will prevail. I see the pendulum swinging away from Fundamentalism Evangelical Older white males to a more reasonable America. I am hopeful that the mid-term elections will clearly show that movement towards Reason and Secular Humanism.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/14 "2018-10-05T17:29:22Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> If I am unable to clearly articulate an argument I need help, not ridicule.

Sure we will help your focus by providing you clear and insightful questions. But you have to consider our questions honestly and with an open mind. They may help you frame your argument better OR they may make you doubt your own beliefs. Either way, it will allow you to grow in wisdom.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/15 "2018-10-05T17:31:37Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> One of the rules of good argumentation is to put forth the best version of your opponents argument that you can. So it is the ID opponents who need to work on their ability to articulate ID arguments. I promise not to heap scorn on you while you work at that. 🙂

This is not a debating society. It is a forum where we discuss science, theology and social issues related to the world we live in now. Perhaps enough common ground can be found so that we can actually doing something positive for the world.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/16 "2018-10-05T17:44:27Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> I see the pendulum swinging away from Fundamentalism Evangelical Older white males to a more reasonable America.

More reasonable America is **_not_** represented by this:

> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Blasphemy, mockery and ridicule of all religions is important for Human reasoning to advance and spread. Christopher Hitchens explains it well why ridicule of beliefs is important.

The point is that ridicule does not bring us to a common society or even succeed at stamping out irrational absurdities. It is neither a morally good response, nor a pragmatically effective one.

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**Author:** ![Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mung](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mung)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/17 "2018-10-05T17:51:29Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Perhaps enough common ground can be found so that we can actually doing something positive for the world.

Do you think ridicule is the way to accomplish this? I don’t.

> [@Patrick](#):
>
> This is not a debating society. It is a forum where we discuss science, theology and social issues related to the world we live in now.

The argument you appear to be making is that this is not a debating society, therefore rules of good argumentation do not apply. But that seems absurd. So I’ll pretend that’s not what you mean.

I agree that this is not a debating society, but what follows from that? You have an unstated premise and I’d like to know what it is. I’d also like to know what your conclusion is.

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/18 "2018-10-05T18:37:02Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> If I am unable to clearly articulate an argument I need help, not ridicule.

It doesn’t work that way.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/19 "2018-10-05T18:38:12Z")

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> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> > If I am unable to clearly articulate an argument I need help, not ridicule.
> 
> It doesn’t work that way.

It is how it works for me. Until an argument is clearly articulate it can’t be clearly rebutted.

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/is-there-value-in-ridicule/2102/20 "2018-10-05T18:45:15Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Until an argument is clearly articulate it can’t be clearly rebutted.

I think we are actually agreeing.

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