Is There Visible Proof of God?


(Timothy Horton) #161

The Oxford definition agrees with the Biology definition i posted. Vestigial means having lost or been degraded from the original function. Some vestigial features have no identified function at all but that is not the definition.. Finding a secondary use of a vestigial feature doesn’t make the feature not vestigial.

Sorry if that’s too complicated a concept for you to understand.

(Dale Cutler) #162

What is the publication date of that? That proves ‘at no time’?

(Timothy Horton) #163

But you’re the one making a bogus argument because you didn’t know the definition of the word vestigial.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #164

Fair question. I’m not sure I know the history of the word. I wonder if someone else does.

(Dale Cutler) #165


(Guy Coe) #166

Go ahead and leave him to his preferred fantasies.

(John Harshman) #167

I think those would be doctors. You’re mad at the wrong people.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #168

That does not mean “without function.” It just means not the same function as before.

(Guy Coe) #169

Not mad, just find the hubris typical. Why weren’t the biologists preventing them? Seems as though there’s always plenty of blame to go around. Glad that the whole concept of “vestigial organs” was reevaluated. Of course, at the time, you would have been called an idiot by some for even questioning the idea.
We all know semantics shift over time. “Vestigial” certainly doesn’t invariably mean “with function,” either.

(Dale Cutler) #170

You asked for the history of the word. I gave it to you. It was pre-Darwin. You complain about the definition. I was answering etymology. :slightly_smiling_face:

(John Harshman) #171

Do biologists have that kind of power? News to me. I demand that doctors stop making me wear clothes that open in the back.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #172

Um. I’m not complaining about the definition. (you don’t really understand much that I write it seems). Instead, I’m noting that this definition does not mean “without any function,” which would mean you were misusing it before.

(Guy Coe) #173

Dale was mostly an observer, until I was accused of not understanding the definition. At which I pointed to the evidence that either others had misused it, historically, or that the definition had shifted over time. Seriously, people around here need to be SO LESS willing to dismiss each other as idiots.

(Timothy Horton) #174

Who in the world ever said it did??? Sorry you and Dale made yourselves look so foolish by not knowing a simple definition. As far as griping about vestigial organ removal, the large majority of people who have their appendix removed suffer zero harmful side effects. Only relatively recently did studies show the danger of removing a non-inflamed one was greater than leaving a healthy one in.

(Timothy Horton) #175

Others may have misused it before but the definition didn’t shift over time. You simply misunderstood the real definition. All your flapping to save face is really silly.

Talk to Dale. He’s the one who dragged in the dumb Creationist argument “science is wrong about vestigial organs because they have function”.

(Dale Cutler) #176

It wasn’t about the definition, it was about the etymology.

@swamidass and/or @Timothy_Horton needs to give Oxford a call:

//2 Biology (of an organ or part of the body) degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution.
‘the vestigial wings of kiwis are entirely hidden’//

vestigial | Definition of vestigial in English by Oxford Dictionaries

(Timothy Horton) #177

LOL! Dale is embarrassed he didn’t know the definition either so he cherry-picks one and ignores all the others

//2 Biology (of an organ or part of the body) degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution.

Of course being the honest sort Dale is he’ll ignore the definition from Biology Online

Vestigial Structures Definition

Vestigial structures are various cells, tissues, and organs in a body which no longer function in the same way the ancestral form of the trait functioned. A vestigial structure can arise due to a mutation in the genome. This mutation will cause a change in the proteins that are required for the formation of the structure. Although the structure no longer functions, the prevalence of the vestigial structure may increase in the population if it is advantageous. In cave-dwelling fish, for example, the development and upkeep of eyes are an unnecessary energetic expense when there is no light. Therefore, vestigial eyes may be selected for over function eyes.

Vestigial means having lost or been degraded from the original function. There’s nothing in evolution which prevents vestigial features from picking up later secondary functions.

(Dale Cutler) #178

@Timothy_Horton doesn’t realize that the ‘having become functionless in the course of evolution’ predicate clause applies to all of the preceeding.

(Dale Cutler) #179

No, never.

(Timothy Horton) #180

Dale doesn’t realize having lost the original function doesn’t mean a vestigial feature can’t pick up another secondary function, like the vestigial whale hips still acting as muscle attachment points.

Why do Creationists think dishonest word twisting and equivocation over scientific definitions makes a valid argument? Willful ignorance + hubris?