Jay Johnson: Problems With Adam and Eve

Thanks @swamidass. I came across this article the other day at God and Nature with some thoughts from a social science perspective which I thought were interesting:


Thank for the note. Typical contribution from @Jay313, largely out of touch with the points of view he critiques. He succeeds in tilting against the windmills.

The logical error (if that is what we call it) is trying to pass off questions as objections. The strategy works by studiously avoiding any real engagement with the questions raised, and ommiting how others have productively engaged the questions. It is very effective at creating the illusion of problems, which in reality are just his invention.

@pevaquark, do you see anything recoverable in that article?

[Edit: see responses to @Jay313 in 2017 here Special Creation of Humans After Millions of Years of Non-Human Evo? - Scientific Evidence - The BioLogos Forum]

I don’t think you should just dismiss him without engaging. He has shown a number of difficulties with a created first (theologically human) couple. You should deal with them. What do you propose as solutions?

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If @Jay313 would like to join the conversation about his article perhaps we will. I’d start by asking him to point to the places other have already addressed this question of his. It would be telling I found a list of examples and he can’t find much or many.

That is what I’d expect, but maybe he will surprise?

Note @John_Harshman this has been addressed with him before. He was a BioLogos moderator for a while.

Let’s see what he does.

Rather than present him with a test, perhaps you would at least point to the answers. (It would be even better just to give the answers again.)

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You can ask the interesting questions on new, threads independent of his article. I’d rather engage them elsewhere to stay on topic.

I’ll try it, but I don’t see why it’s not on topic right here.

I find @Jay313 article to be very good at discussing the practicality of a de novo GAE. I would also add GAE’s gut bacteria as a real limitation to integrating into a agrarian society after being expelled from the Garden of Eden.

That’s probably not the best way to begin a discussion with him though he might say your response to him is also a typical dismissal of anything concerning GAE. Not sure though.

I am guessing that you mean some theologians have written about the special creation of Adam within a larger population and don’t think that there would be any sociological challenges to that. And if there are any they can just be dismissed as #GodDidIt? I’m not sure exactly what you mean though.

You could provide some references too. I really don’t have time to try to figure this out myself, but it seems that what you’re thinking is this little article I shared is basically a joke.

I went through all the recent threads and thought that this one would be a good one since it was focused on some rather similar issues. This thread did kind of fly off into the multiverse though.

He would probably also catch a number of diseases fairly shortly afterwards as well. Is the best course of action though @swamidass to just ignore comments like @Patrick ‘s? I would guess that to some extent particular Christian positions can just ignore comments like these because it all does fall under the umbrella of stuff God took care of when creating a person from scratch.


I’m happy to engage people raising questions in good faith and desiring a real exchange. Please start another thread with the questions you think are most salient, and Ill gladly engage with you @pevaquark .

If and when @Jay313 wants to engage, I will engage with him. At the moment, I’m not convinced he is operating in good faith.

As for @Patrick? We are friends and that has all the hallmarks one of his jokes. There are obvious answers to it, right?

@pevaquark, it seems most or all of his objections are answered in this thread from 2017. Notably, @Jay313 himself was part of this thread. (Special Creation of Humans After Millions of Years of Non-Human Evo? - Scientific Evidence - The BioLogos Forum).

The piece is very interesting. @swamidass response is inappropriate.

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Yes, GAE were given a 10 day course of antibiotics to take upon being expelled from the Garden. That did the trick and allowed them to restart their gut bacteria while integrating into secular human society. :sunglasses:

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Not good enough to point to a thread with 145 comments and ask people to find what you’re talking about. The appropriate response here would be to list Jay’s objections and your answers to each. That would have been appropriate in the original thread, and it’s doubly so in this new thread you just started.

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I suppose it would only matter if I’m trying to convince you that de novo creation really happened and produce a scientific model of it. I’m not. I’m not even saying I affirm de novo creation. If you don’t want to believe it, fine by me. It is not my argument to make that it is really what happened.

I don’t know who you’re talking to, but since you just accused someone of not communicating in good faith, when they wrote a piece in the ASA journal, then you have some explaining to do and this sure as hell isn’t it.

I see no reason to argue with people in absentia, especially when their arguments have already been addressed. Happy to engage with him when he shows up. Should be a fun conversation with all this build up!

So instead, you made a public accusation about his intentions, and tagged him.
This is really bad. Take some time to think about it.

It’s an honest invitation, not a tag, but we can take the thread off the front page (still accessible and not deleted) if that would put him less on the spot.

Let me assist you with a quote:

The questions there are not just questions; they’re objections to the scenario.

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