# Ken Miller: A Textbook Biologist at the Dover Trial

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410>\
**Category:** Peaceful Science\
**Tags:** Science, Design, Society\
**Created:** [November 10, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410 "2020-11-10T19:54:30Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 17\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/puck_mendelssohn/32/11849_2.png) [@Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Puck_Mendelssohn)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 12:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/21 "2020-11-11T12:06:18Z")

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I know Caroline Stromberg! She’s at the University of Washington here in Seattle now. She was showing me a phytolith under a microscope at the Burke Museum during a recent (pre-COVID) members’ open house night, in fact.

I had a lovely evening out at a pub with her, her husband (Greg Wilson), the paleontologist Christine Janis (who used to be at Brown alongside Ken Miller but now is a professor emeritus), and a bunch of paleo grad students once. Christine and I were regaling them with tales of creationist nonsense. I recall telling Caroline about the thesis of Douglas Axe’s book – that it’s intuitively obvious that living things are designed, and that we should trust our intuition on this – and she simply said that she had no such intuition. Can’t say I have that intuition, either.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/22 "2020-11-11T14:49:15Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> No, I can already see that Behe’s argument is self-defeating. Oops. Biologists arent dumb.
> 
> Though he still may understand evolutionary theory a little better than they do.

Valerie giveth, and Valerie taketh away.

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**Author:** ![Art](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/art/32/3805_2.png) [@Art](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Art)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/23 "2020-11-11T14:49:24Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> @art, what are phytoliths, and why do plants make them?

You probably thought the grit in your salad came from unwashed lettuce 😀. I don’t know why plants do most of the things they do. But phytoliths are yet another example of how fascinating are the goings on underground.

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**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/24 "2020-11-11T14:49:27Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> In Kenneth Miller’s mousetrap explanation, he said that the “subset of the parts is functional”

actually its not realy true. you need to involve intelligence to make subset of mouse trap functional.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/25 "2020-11-11T15:37:03Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> actually its not realy true. you need to involve intelligence to make subset of mouse trap functional.

Yes it’s really true. Whether or not a subset of mousetrap parts can have a function is a different question from how the parts got there. The original mouse trap is NOT irreducibly complex because its parts can be used for other different functions.

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**Author:** ![mherzel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mherzel/32/10341_2.png) [@mherzel](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/mherzel)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/26 "2020-11-11T17:31:57Z")

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It’s only a Google away, but here’s the link if anyone wants to check out the Ken Miller/Henry Morris debate mentioned around 15 minutes in. [The Miller/Morris Debate (1981) | National Center for Science Education](https://ncse.ngo/millermorris-debate-1981) Audio and transcript available.

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/27 "2020-11-11T18:33:18Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> The original mouse trap is NOT irreducibly complex because its parts can be used for other different functions.

Yes, but he’s saying the mousetrap didn’t move its parts on its own. Someone intelligent has to do that.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/28 "2020-11-11T19:46:14Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Yes, but he’s saying the mousetrap didn’t move its parts on its own.

No one said a mousetrap had to move its parts on its own. That’s not germane to the topic. Do you understand a mousetrap is NOT irreducibly complex since parts can be removed and the remainder still retain a different function?

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/29 "2020-11-11T20:05:11Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> No one said a mousetrap had to move its parts on its own. That’s not germane to the topic. Do you understand a mousetrap is NOT irreducibly complex since parts can be removed and the remainder still retain a different function?

Yes, clearly Behe brought up the mousetrap example to explain the principle of irreducibly complexity through a complex arrangement of multiple parts, not to argue that Mousetrap parts had to be moved around by hand. The components of organisms don’t move around by hand, they self-assemble under genetic control.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/30 "2020-11-11T20:10:18Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Kenneth Miller mentions creationists aren’t interested in coprolites.

> [@Rumraket](#):
>
> Yes that’s a bit overselling it I think. Clearly creationists are very self-interested.

In the words of Larry the Cable Guy, “I don’t care who you are. That’s funny.”

(For years I’ve described myself as an “ol’ fossil”. @rumraket, you’ve challenged me to be more specific in the future.)

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Valerie giveth, and Valerie taketh away.

I smiled on that one as well.

You folks are on a roll today. We should book you for the next HBO Pay-Per-View _Peaceful Science Comedy Special._

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**Author:** ![mherzel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mherzel/32/10341_2.png) [@mherzel](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/mherzel)\
**Post date:** [November 11, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/31 "2020-11-11T22:29:34Z")

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> “It’s only a Google away, but here’s the link if anyone wants to check out the Ken Miller/Henry Morris debate mentioned around 15 minutes in. [The Miller/Morris Debate (1981) | National Center for Science Education](https://ncse.ngo/millermorris-debate-1981) Audio and transcript available.”

Just listened to the whole thing, and this is about the most masterful oral takedown of YEC and Flood Geology I’ve ever heard. “God hath delivered him into my hands…” Bravo, Mr. Miller. 🙂

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2020, 3:09am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/32 "2020-11-12T03:09:50Z")

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> [@mherzel](#):
>
> Just listened to the whole thing, and this is about the most masterful oral takedown of YEC and Flood Geology I’ve ever heard. “God hath delivered him into my hands…” Bravo, Mr. Miller. 🙂

They are definitely both masterful speakers. It is fascinating in its cultural context.

I listened to the first two hours and I was wondering how much of the science was outdated on both sides. Miller’s presentation of origin of life seems like it would be completely wrong by today’s standards and from what I heard it seems OoL has gone backwards so I wondered if today proved his 1980s self wrong on evolution. 😅 I’d be curious how much has changed if anyone wants to listen to the second section. The framework Morris gave on the first section seems exactly where we were at today. If anything I thought only genetics has changed - 40 years ago that looked so different - and I think creationists have adopted more evolutionary ideas. I plan on listening to the rest tonight.

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 12, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/33 "2020-11-12T16:38:36Z")

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> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> No one said a mousetrap had to move its parts on its own. That’s not germane to the topic. Do you understand a mousetrap is NOT irreducibly complex since parts can be removed and the remainder still retain a different function?

I already explained I see that argument as self-defeating, if he uses the word “devolution.” Then how could we as humans still be functional? So yes, I do understand.

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**Author:** ![mherzel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mherzel/32/10341_2.png) [@mherzel](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/mherzel)\
**Post date:** [November 13, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/34 "2020-11-13T18:56:17Z")

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I’m obviously no expert, but I had the same thought on some of the origin of life material Miller was presenting. I’d guess a lot of that is outdated, and he may have been overstating some of it a tad even for the time. And yes, both of them are great speakers and debaters! I hadn’t heard Henry Morris speak before and as soon as he started his presentation his popularity suddenly made a lot of sense. Likable dude.

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 13, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/35 "2020-11-13T19:06:27Z")

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Yes - I finished it. It was so good! I really wish we had a tape of Wilberforce and Huxley to compare. That would be awesome! I had really little to no knowledge of creationist science before this year, so it was definitely obvious why Morris was so popular once I heard him speaking and why he started a movement.

The discussion of entropy was fascinating. I haven’t heard that in any of the debates I’ve listened to recently. Plus, in evolution and creation the debate is now about genetics and nested hierarchies and such. The references to transitional forms is sort of on the back-burner, and only used as it related to nested hierarchies that I’ve seen.

Miller obviously took a lot of time to study Morris’ position and it showed. He was punchy.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [November 15, 2020, 4:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/36 "2020-11-15T04:48:50Z")

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The blog post for this podcast is now up.

> **[Kenneth Miller: A Textbook Biologist at the Dover Trial](https://peacefulscience.org/miller-textbook-dover/)**
>
> Fifteen years ago in the Dover Trial, one of the star witnesses was Kenneth Miller, a textbook biologist. He has many stories to tell.

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**Author:** ![Tim](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/tim/32/9381_2.png) [@Tim](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Tim)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/ken-miller-a-textbook-biologist-at-the-dover-trial/12410/37 "2020-11-21T15:06:40Z")

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On the topic of creationists and coprolites:

> **[Fossil Fish Feces—a Reminder of the Flood](https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/fossil-fish-feces-reminder-of-flood/)**
>
> Mass of fossilized fish feces (coprolites) did not decay and point to a global flood and the truth of God’s Word.

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