# Lents: Devolution is Not a Thing

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651>\
**Category:** Office Hours\
**Tags:** Science\
**Created:** [February 19, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651 "2019-02-19T08:35:50Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/1 "2019-02-19T08:35:50Z")

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> **[Darwin Devolves: “Devolution” is Not a Thing](https://thehumanevolutionblog.com/2019/02/19/devolution-not-a-thing/)**
>
> The very title of Behe’s book indicates a profound misunderstanding of evolutionary theory

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**Author:** ![Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mung](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mung)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/2 "2019-02-19T16:48:25Z")

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> “Devolve” is a pure Behe-ism.

From me this garners a huge so what.

> According to Behe, a protein _evolves_ if it improves in function (or gains a new function), and it _devolves_ if it’s function is reduced, degraded, or destroyed.

So he defines what he means by the term. That is good.

> Evolution simply means change over time…

So “devolution” is not the opposite of evolution, because for that to be the case “devolution” would have to mean no change over time.

And Lents tell us that change over time “favors simplicity, efficiency, and streamlining as often as it favors complexity.”

Lents also tell us that change over time " is aimless, sloppy, and produces clunky solutions as often as it does elegant ones."

We are simply asked to take his word for it.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/3 "2019-02-19T18:14:56Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> We are simply asked to take his word for it.

Is this not something you know about? You can’t think of any examples?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/4 "2019-02-19T18:21:52Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> > “Devolve” is a pure Behe-ism.
> 
> From me this garners a huge so what.

Actually I’m fairly sure other ID/Creationists used it before him, but I don’t think that is the point here.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/5 "2019-02-19T18:41:40Z")

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> I find it poetic that the very title of this book, _Darwin Devolves,_ is a misnomer. There is no such thing as _devolution_ and there is no great crisis in evolutionary biology. There are, however, a great deal of interesting unanswered questions. Our new era of cheap genome sequencing can begin to interrogate some of these questions. As with all great interrogations in science, the answers will come from the proper interpretation of all available evidence.

This is an interesting observation Nathan makes. Which side of the argument is cheap genome sequence favoring? What is it telling us?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/6 "2019-02-19T20:54:36Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> Which side of the argument is cheap genome sequence favoring?

What makes you think there’s an argument? You give ID too much credit.

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**Author:** ![Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mung](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mung)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/7 "2019-02-19T21:19:57Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> You can’t think of any examples?

Examples of what?

Examples of change over time favoring simplicity, efficiency, and streamlining **as often as** it favors complexity? No, I cannot think of any examples. Someone would actually need to define their terms and produce the actual science to back it up rather than posting unsubstantiated claims in a blog post and just asking people to believe it.

Do you actually buy the “evolution simply means change over time” assertion? Perhaps that is the “evolution for simpletons” version. So modern evolutionary theory is modern “simply change over time” theory?

If evolution simply means change over time we can all go home now.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 12:44am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/8 "2019-02-20T00:44:06Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> Examples of change over time favoring simplicity, efficiency, and streamlining **as often as** it favors complexity?

Sorry, I forgot that you are usually just trying to score points off exact wording. Winning! Wouldn’t it be equally good for his argument if it just happens a sizable fraction of the time rather than exactly half? Now, I seem to recall an actual study in which someone took a major taxon and counted the increases and decreases in some measure of complexity. Was it nematodes? I’ll see if I can find it.

Hmmm…if you google “simplification in evolution” you turn up quite a few papers on the subject, though so far I don’t see the one I was thinking of. Still, [this one](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27212432) will do.

> [@Mung](#):
>
> So modern evolutionary theory is modern “simply change over time” theory?

Ah, another attempt to score points off exact wording. Winning again! But you have confused the definition of a word with evolutionary biology itself, which goes into far more detail than the simple definitions.

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**Author:** ![Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mung](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mung)\
**Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/9 "2019-02-20T16:10:39Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Ah, another attempt to score points off exact wording.

And you don’t think that how Nathan defined evolution was a part of his rhetorical strategy against Behe? And of course that’s the real point. Lents wants to score points and to do so he pretends that evolution means simply change over time. And you play right along.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/10 "2019-02-20T16:12:18Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> And you don’t think that how Nathan defined evolution was a part of his rhetorical strategy against Behe?

Yes, everyone has rhetorical strategies, including ID advocates. This isn’t about scoring points though.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/11 "2019-02-20T16:12:24Z")

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That chip on your shoulder, or perhaps the beam in your eye, is making you paranoid.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/12 "2019-02-20T22:05:42Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> We are simply asked to take his word for it.

Behe claims that any adaptations due to Darwninian mechanisms involve breaking genes.

We are simply supposed to take his word for it.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/13 "2019-02-20T22:22:58Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> Do you actually buy the “evolution simply means change over time” assertion?

That is what biologists mean by evolution, so yes, I buy it. For example, the tapeworm has lost many of the adaptations needed to survive outside of a host, and that is still evolution. Obligate intracellular parasites (e.g. Chlamydia sp.) have followed a similar evolutionary path. Nowhere in the theory of evolution does it state that evolution must always follow a path towards higher complexity. Even Darwin wrote about organs becoming rudiments if they were no longer used.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/14 "2019-02-21T03:31:00Z")

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> [@Mung](#):
>
> Do you actually buy the “evolution simply means change over time” assertion?

OK, no. Evolution doesn’t just mean change over time. It means _heritable_ change _across generations_. Which is essentially genetic change.

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**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/15 "2019-02-21T05:38:21Z")

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I define evolution in three ways. Each definition entails the previous one.

At its most basic evolution is:

1. heritable change across generations. To borrow John’s terminology.

Evolution can also be understood as:  
2. The thesis of universal common ancestry. For (2) to happen one has to happen.

And three:

1. Evolution can be understood as evolutionary theory. The scientific theory that explains how (1) and (2) happens and takes place.

These are all of course change over time.

One thing that bothers me about the ID/creation/evolution discussion is too much time is spent on the differences instead of common ground. Let’s say some type of progressive, seperare ancestry turns out to be true (it won’t. But bare with me). What really changes? One word in (2). Take out the world universal.

I just read a YEC baraminology paper on Tyrannosaurs. They came to the same basic conclusion as mainstream academia has on Tyrannosauroid evolution. Also read one on dromaeosaurs and it was like 30 taxa across multiple families in their “kind” (Clade). Saw a snake one that was like 27 families and 700 species. That’s a lot of evolution. The traditional anti-evolutionists are starting to accept more and more evolution. I don’t know how I ended up on this rant. But there you go

Tyrannosaurs:  
[https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/discerning-tyrants-usurpers-statistical-baraminological-analysis-tyrannosauroidea-yielding-first-din/](https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/discerning-tyrants-usurpers-statistical-baraminological-analysis-tyrannosauroidea-yielding-first-din/)

Dinosauria:

> **[35%20Doran%20dinosaur%20baraminology%20final.pdf](https://creationicc.org/2018_papers/35%20Doran%20dinosaur%20baraminology%20final.pdf)**
>
> 14.05 MB

A summary of some of the clades that they have established:  
[http://coresci.org/jcts/index.php/jctsb/article/download/16/80](http://coresci.org/jcts/index.php/jctsb/article/download/16/80)

I want to thank Todd Wood for sending me these.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 3:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/16 "2019-02-21T15:40:07Z")

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Provide some citations there.

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**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/17 "2019-02-21T18:03:12Z")

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Done and done

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/18 "2019-02-22T00:41:19Z")

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> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> I want to thank Todd Wood for sending me these.

Thanks to him and to you for posting the links. But I think this is clearly an example of cargo cult science. There are lots of graphs and figures and sciencey-sounding terms and analyses, but is there any justification for believing that these analyses ought to be able to distinguish separate “kinds”?

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**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 3:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/19 "2019-02-22T03:24:11Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> but is there any justification for believing that these analyses ought to be able to distinguish separate “kinds”?

I don’t think so. But I’m trying to understand why they think there is.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 3:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/lents-devolution-is-not-a-thing/4651/20 "2019-02-22T03:36:15Z")

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> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> But I’m trying to understand why they think there is.

I don’t think they ever say.

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