# Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Science\
**Created:** [July 23, 2019, 8:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011 "2019-07-23T08:17:17Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![jety](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c0e974/32.png) [@jety](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jety)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 8:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/1 "2019-07-23T08:17:17Z")

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[![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/3/3817ff720e4f8f7fe1ef973cfd1383e1d86355ba.jpeg "Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noj4phMT9OE)

They’re making a purely mathematical argument, which, as we all know, doesn’t work. If the origin of life depended on pure chance alone, then it could not have happened.  
The only other alternative is to insert some fine tuning into the very laws of nature as presented earlier.

> [@More on the origin of life](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/more-on-the-origin-of-life/6961):
>
> Folks, this is what I’m talking about. Simple, teachable, understandable. Potentially true. If you won’t listen to the whole talk, start at 40:00

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**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 9:06am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/2 "2019-07-23T09:06:31Z")

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So they start off by saying that “species” is a simple concept and any bright child knows what “species” are because children can tell the difference between dogs and cats and cows.

Then they misrepresent the fossil evidence for the Cambrian “explosion”.

It’s simple, teachable, understandable… and wrong.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 9:37am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/3 "2019-07-23T09:37:24Z")

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> [@jety](#):
>
> If the origin of life depended on pure chance alone, then it could not have happened.

Technically that would just make it very unlikely, that doesn’t mean it could not have happened.

The lower the probability, the lower the frequency. If the probability isn’t strictly zero, then it’s possible it could have happened. At no point does the probability of some event, or result of some process, cross over from just more unlikely to “so unlikely it _requires_ divine intervention/design/fine-tuning”.

Positing fine-tuning doesn’t solve the probability problem, as you now have to have a fine-tuned fine-tuner such that it would want to create life as we know it. What’s the probability of that?

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**Author:** ![BruceS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/59ef9b/32.png) [@BruceS](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/BruceS)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 10:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/4 "2019-07-23T10:22:20Z")

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Armchair arguments from a bunch of guys sitting in armchairs.

Scott Aaronson of Gerlenters standing in CS:

> [@](#):
>
> […] if you check Gelernter’s [publication list on DBLP](https://dblp.uni-trier.de/pers/hd/g/Gelernter:David)and his [Google Scholar page](https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=david+gelernter&btnG=&oq=david+geler), you’ll find that he did influential work in programming languages, parallel computing, and other areas from 1981 through 1997, and then in the past 22 years published a grand total of … **two** papers in computer science. One with four coauthors, the other a review/perspective piece about his earlier work. So it seems fair to say that, some time after receiving tenure in a CS department, Gelernter pivoted (to put it mildly) away from CS and toward conservative punditry.

> **[On two blog posts of Jerry Coyne](https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=4253)**
>
> A few months ago, I got to know Jerry Coyne, the recently-retired biologist at the University of Chicago who writes the blog “Why Evolution Is True.” The interaction started when Jerry …

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/5 "2019-07-23T12:13:54Z")

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Never heard of Gelernter, so I looked him up and found he had been a victim of the Unabomber!

Someone has to say it: Who TAF dressed Berlinski for this?

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/7 "2019-07-23T14:30:08Z")

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> [@jety](#):
>
> They’re making a purely mathematical argument, which, as we all know, doesn’t work.

This has been the failure of the ID movement all along. Their arguments against evolution are detached from reality.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/8 "2019-07-23T19:07:08Z")

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I’m still curious when they will move on to engaging contemporary understanding of evolution, rather than the 150 year old “Darwin’s theory.”

I wonder if we take a look at the transcript and count up how often the word “Darwin” appears.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/9 "2019-07-23T19:23:34Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I wonder if we take a look at the transcript and count up how often the word “Darwin” appears.

Turns out it 76 times in 9200 words. And here is a tag cloud. “Darwin” is the most important person in the room!

 ![image](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/3/3282e1188d5a1e322b2ab40068643beb048d115f.png)

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/10 "2019-07-23T20:17:21Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I’m still curious when they will move on to engaging contemporary understanding of evolution, rather than the 150 year old “Darwin’s theory.”

Never.

They have no interest in that.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/11 "2019-07-23T20:18:22Z")

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> [@Roy](#):
>
> Then they misrepresent the fossil evidence for the Cambrian “explosion”.

And then they try to taint Darwin by associating him with Marx and Freud, as examples of “failed paradigms.” It’s the old Argument from Negative Associations fallacy.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/12 "2019-07-23T21:15:27Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Turns out it 76 times in 9200 words. And here is a tag cloud. “Darwin” is the most important person in the room!

The Discovery Institute loves to attack “Darwinism” even though Darwinism hasn’t been the scientific consensus for close to a hundred years. Darwin is a recognizable name of course so the DI spends lots of time attacking something the public has heard of. ID’s target audience isn’t professional scientists. It’s scientifically illiterate laymen who want science to prop up their religious beliefs, something the DI exploits with 100% of their religious themed anti-science propaganda.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/13 "2019-07-23T21:33:30Z")

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The other reason they do this is it allows them to deceptively claim that legitimate scientists who criticize “Darwinism” are criticizing evolution as a whole.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/14 "2019-07-23T23:24:57Z")

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From your understanding what are the current scientific claims of evolution as a whole?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/15 "2019-07-24T00:53:26Z")

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Too big a question. Suffice it to say it is not encompassed by “Darwinism,” and much of it is in direct contradiction of “Darwinism.”

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/16 "2019-07-24T00:56:22Z")

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I think a good starting point is common descent of humans with the great apes.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/17 "2019-07-24T00:58:24Z")

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That is the one point that sticks in the craws of creationists. If that one piece was not part of the theory, creationists would consider evolution as controversial as gravity (which it is).

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**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/18 "2019-07-25T14:44:29Z")

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28 posts were split to a new topic: [Fuzzy definitions of human: YEC and evolutionary science](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/fuzzy-definitions-of-human-yec-and-evolutionary-science/7021)

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**Author:** ![Robert\_Byers1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/robert_byers1/32/5158_2.png) [@Robert\_Byers1](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Robert_Byers1)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:47am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/20 "2019-07-24T04:47:58Z")

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this was a great idea for a talk. its about how someone was persuaded by meyers book that evolutionism has serious problems andf this was from a fan of evolution.  
The math thing was explained. its how it requires fantastic probabilities to see chance created complicated things. Evolutionism claiming mutations turned dust into biology is just dumb. Math should prove this.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/21 "2019-07-24T10:20:42Z")

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A ringing and much coveted endorsement, to be sure.

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**Author:** ![BruceS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/59ef9b/32.png) [@BruceS](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/BruceS)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/mathematical-challenges-to-darwin-s-theory-of-evolution/7011/38 "2019-07-24T18:23:12Z")

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Joe F has a thread on Panda’ thumb on this video  
[https://pandasthumb.org/archives/2019/07/A-dramatic-new-mathematical-challenge.html](https://pandasthumb.org/archives/2019/07/A-dramatic-new-mathematical-challenge.html)

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