# Michael Egnor: The Evidence against Materialism

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [June 17, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652 "2019-06-17T14:22:56Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/1 "2019-06-17T14:22:56Z")

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[![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/3X/5/1/51d495c16267176977a6b0eed0651b209318071d.jpeg "Michael Egnor: The Evidence against Materialism - Science Uprising Expert Interviews") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHrpBPdtSI)

An interesting if infuriating video. What is it with brain surgeons? I’m sure I’d trust this guy to operate on my brain, but leave my mind alone 🙂 From my alma mater no less! Different department 🙂 It touches on the question “what is scientific evidence” that I recall seeing lately. I doubt that using some poorly understood aspect of mental function as evidence of activity independent of the brain qualifies, but what do I know. By the way, in case anyone misses the point, they’re talking about scientific evidence that refutes materialism. I stopped watching when they got to “how materialism taints science”; I think I’ve got a handle on that already 🙂 I would be most interested in looking into the experiments of Dr. Penfield more.

I note he has been previously mentioned here:

> [@Michael Egnor" Free Will and Criminal Justice](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-free-will-and-criminal-justice/4002):
>

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/2 "2019-06-17T16:56:47Z")

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Rubbish.

Numbers 1 and 3 are addressed by neural network theory which, even though it’s been around since the 19th century, it appears Dr. Egnor has never heard of. It’s no accident that this is a fundamental aspect of AI research:

> **[Neural network](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network)**
>
> A neural network is a network or circuit of neurons, or in a modern sense, an artificial neural network, composed of artificial neurons or nodes. Thus a neural network is either a biological neural network, made up of real biological neurons, or an artificial neural network, for solving artificial intelligence (AI) problems. The connections of the biological neuron are modeled as weights. A positive weight reflects an excitatory connection, while negative values mean inhibitory connections. Al

Number 2 is just silly. Cutting the corpus callosum is NOT the same thing as “cutting your brain in half”. It is simply bisecting a particular bundle of connecting fibres. That this has limited effect only demonstrates that the hemispheres of the brain largely function autonomously from one another.

Maybe I’ll watch more and comment later. I’m working, and also the Raptors’ victory parade is on today!

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/3 "2019-06-17T20:39:26Z")

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Evidence #4

Oh. My. God.

Remember: what Egnor is arguing that the mind is an immaterial entity that is not dependent on brain activity for its existence.

His fourth piece of evidence for this claim? That some patients who are in a vegetative state still show evidence of mental activity.

What is this evidence?

That functional MRI will show evidence of brain activity in these patients.

I am not making this up. Watch for yourself it you don’t believe me.

Egnor himself, in his own argument, is relying on the presumption that mental activity arises from brain activity. The very thing he is trying to argue against. An eliminative materialist could make the same argument he uses here.

Unbelievable.

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 2:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/4 "2019-06-18T02:31:11Z")

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Yeah I didn’t get that one at all. He did mention that they excluded the possibility of normal background activity, and it did seem there was some aural response function at work. He seemed particularly impressed that the response was only to meaningful sentences and not individual words, but I have no idea how that is supposed to support his case and “refute materialism”.

Hypothetically, I’d like to see a patient ask him, “So Doctor, you can guarantee that my mind will be unaffected by this brain surgery? No? Well, are there some aspects of my mind that you can guarantee will be unaffected? No? Well…”

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/5 "2019-06-19T21:59:50Z")

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I often ask people who insist their mind is immaterial to put their money where their mouths are, by scooping out their brain and pulverizing it in a food processor, then continuing our discussion with their mental faculties still intact, as they should be if they were correct. No one has ever taken me up on this.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/6 "2019-06-19T23:33:45Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> No one has ever taken me up on this.

Jeez, even I can deal with that one. The mind communicates with the body through the brain. Remove the brain, and the mind can’t work the body any more.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/7 "2019-06-19T23:41:29Z")

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Wouldn’t that be cool, though? To be pure consciousness, unencumbered by physical limitations? Wouldn’t at least _someone_ want to experience that?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/8 "2019-06-19T23:44:05Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Wouldn’t that be cool, though? To be pure consciousness, unencumbered by physical limitations?

Can pure consciousnesses see, hear, etc.? Can they move around? Can they influence the world in any way? I would not be prepared for the experiment without clear evidence on those points. Not really ready to give up the flesh.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/9 "2019-06-20T11:13:53Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Can pure consciousnesses see, hear, etc.? Can they move around? Can they influence the world in any way?

MIchael Egnor believes so, as do most of the people who believe in out of body experiences and things of that sort as evidence for the immateriality of the mind.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/10 "2019-06-20T13:05:43Z")

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Apparently they must also believe in the immateriality of the eyes and ears.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/11 "2019-06-20T14:45:16Z")

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Or at least of vision and hearing. I don’t get that either, but it’s not my circus.

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**Author:** ![vjtorley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e36b37/32.png) [@vjtorley](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/vjtorley)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/12 "2019-06-28T18:52:19Z")

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@Faizal_Ali,

What do you make of Egnor’s claim (based on the work of Wilder Penfield) that neurosurgeons “have stimulated every imaginable region of the brain yet they have never stimulated abstract thought nor have they observed an intellectual seizure”? This strikes me as an interesting point.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/13 "2019-06-28T19:14:49Z")

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It seems to be an incorrect claim. A lot of people would call schizophrenia something like an intellectual seizure (though not technically a seizure), and it can be induced with medication in normal people.

I am curious @Faizal_Ali’s thoughts too.

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/14 "2019-06-28T19:56:07Z")

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> [@vjtorley](#):
>
> This strikes me as an interesting point.

It strikes me as not at all relevant.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/15 "2019-06-28T21:14:58Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> It seems to be an incorrect claim. A lot of people would call schizophrenia something like an intellectual seizure (though not technically a seizure), and it can be induced with medication in normal people.

That is an interesting example, and I think it may well be germane.

But the other point is that Egnor is simply wrong. Intellectual seizures do occur. Here, for example, is a woman with frontal lobe epilepsy whose seizures consisted of the thought "“I have something that I must do”

> **[Simple Partial Status of Forced Thinking Originated in the Mesial Temporal...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3952329/)**
>
> Forced thinking (FT) is a rare epileptic phenomenon which is usually seen in patients with frontal lobe epilepsy. We report a rare case of mesial temporal lobe epilepsy presenting FT as simple partial status epilepticus. A 50-year-old woman with left...

There are other such examples.

I think Egnor’s argument errs in failing to appreciate the neurological complexity involved in complex abstract thoughts. Similar to his other arguments, he seems to believe that there is a single point in the brain that, when stimulated, should cause someone to understand the Pythagorean theorem or make an argument in favour of a flat tax rate. By the same token, you don’t just stimulate a tiny point in the brain and cause someone to brush his teeth.

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**Author:** ![EyesShiningAngrily](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/eyesshiningangrily/32/5031_2.png) [@EyesShiningAngrily](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/EyesShiningAngrily)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 10:37am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/16 "2019-06-29T10:37:15Z")

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I don’t think you understand what material/immaterial means. Consciousness is immaterial by virtue of the fact it has no physical properties – no mass, no electric charge, no velocity, it can’t be seen, touched etc. That is simply the way things are. Materialism so defined is simply not correct.

I’m sure no one in the history of the Universe has ever claimed the brain has zero effects on consciousness. As usual, materialists attacking ludicrous straw men.

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**Author:** ![EyesShiningAngrily](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/eyesshiningangrily/32/5031_2.png) [@EyesShiningAngrily](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/EyesShiningAngrily)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/17 "2019-06-29T10:40:16Z")

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No idea why my comment doesn’t appear underneath this Faizel Ali’s comment.

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**Author:** ![EyesShiningAngrily](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/eyesshiningangrily/32/5031_2.png) [@EyesShiningAngrily](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/EyesShiningAngrily)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 10:43am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/18 "2019-06-29T10:43:16Z")

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Can disembodied consciousness see or hear etc? Why wouldn’t it be able to? I think people that ask this question appear to be presupposing the brain produces consciousness. If the brain doesn’t produce consciousness, then it doesn’t produce my visual perceptions etc either.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/19 "2019-06-29T12:25:32Z")

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> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> Consciousness is immaterial by virtue of the fact it has no physical properties – no mass, no electric charge, no velocity, it can’t be seen, touched etc.

The issue is no whether consciousness is “material” in that sense. Rather, the issue is whether anything other than material brain processes are needed to account for its existence.

> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> I’m sure no one in the history of the Universe has ever claimed the brain has zero effects on consciousness.

Who has claimed that anyone has?

> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> If the brain doesn’t produce consciousness, then it doesn’t produce my visual perceptions etc either.

Right. So…?

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/20 "2019-06-29T14:16:05Z")

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> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> Can disembodied consciousness see or hear etc?

Can there be such a thing as disembodied consciousness?

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