# Michael Egnor: The Evidence against Materialism

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [June 17, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652 "2019-06-17T14:22:56Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 30, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/42 "2019-06-30T12:30:35Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> I think you have confused having velocity and location with being able to determine what that velocity and location are. The uncertainty principle concerns the latter.

No. The uncertainty principle is not just a statement of the limits of our knowledge. It is a statement of the actual state of affairs. The particle whose location we know does not have a precise velocity which we simply cannot measure. It literally does not have a single velocity, but rather a range of velocities in superposition. My understanding, anyway, as explicitly stated in books like this

> **[Quantum: A Guide for the Perplexed: Al-Khalili, Dr. Jim: 9781841882383:...](https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Perplexed-Dr-Jim-Al-Khalili/dp/1841882380?tag=swamidass-20)**
>
> Buy Quantum: A Guide for the Perplexed on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders

Perhaps I am being to forceful in my statement, and it would be more accurate to say there is no clear evidence that a particle can have both an exact momentum and location. This touches on the thorny question of the degree to which our measurements determine or reflect reality.

> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> So a believer in an afterlife would agree that eyes and ears are necessary, but only whilst they are embodied. Eyes and ears don’t create visions and sounds.

I’d ask for a more detailed and precise explanation of how this works, but since you’ve decided to insult us and flounce off rather than defend your claims in an open forum, the point is moot.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 30, 2019, 12:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/43 "2019-06-30T12:33:38Z")

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> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> I don’t know what the heck QM has to do with anything, but I simply don’t buy into your metaphysical conception of reality eg subatomic particles that lack a position etc.

If your position requires that you deny some of the scientific facts of the universe what we know with the highest degree of certainty, then I can understand why you’d rather run away then defend your claims.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [June 30, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/44 "2019-06-30T16:12:32Z")

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Who are you calling a nitwit? I have a PhD in the subject area. And I am well versed in present day interpretations and results of QM.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 30, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/45 "2019-06-30T18:10:34Z")

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What is your PhD in, if I may ask?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [June 30, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/46 "2019-06-30T19:19:26Z")

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What exactly is an intellectual seizure?

Sounds like a joke, I know. Perhaps it could be. I’m serious though. What is it?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [June 30, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/47 "2019-06-30T19:42:09Z")

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My guess is that someone starts doing something like solving mathematical problems if the brain is stimulated, either deliberately by an experimenter or thru a spontaneous discharge. In context, I think that is what Egnor is suggesting.

It’s an interesting question. I don’t think immateriality answers it.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/48 "2019-07-01T00:08:14Z")

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Electrical Engineering.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 3:59am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/49 "2019-07-01T03:59:09Z")

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A PhD in EE, a great example of an intellectual seizure. 😄

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 4:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/50 "2019-07-01T04:25:08Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> What exactly is an intellectual seizure?

Egner discusses it starting at 8:57.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 1, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/51 "2019-07-01T23:56:38Z")

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Egnor has released a flurry of blog posts responding to the arguments I have made here. Naturally, there is no comments section:

[https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/can-buzzwords-about-neural-networks-save-materialist-neuroscience/](https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/can-buzzwords-about-neural-networks-save-materialist-neuroscience/)

[https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/atheist-psychiatrist-misunderstands-evidence-for-immaterial-mind/](https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/atheist-psychiatrist-misunderstands-evidence-for-immaterial-mind/)

[https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/do-epileptic-seizures-cause-abstract-thoughts/](https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/do-epileptic-seizures-cause-abstract-thoughts/)

Suffice it to say his responses miss the mark by a wide margin.

I have sent the website an email clarifying that I do not “describe (myself) as a ‘Militant atheist’ and an ‘Anti-Creationist Psychiatrist’”, but rather that those are @swamidass’s pet nicknames for me. 🙂

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/52 "2019-07-02T00:03:31Z")

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Has anyone suggested ‘rabid’? 😝

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:09am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/53 "2019-07-02T00:09:30Z")

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I suggest “Cuddly Smart Guy.”

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:11am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/54 "2019-07-02T00:11:46Z")

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I would need some evidence to put faith in that idea. 😛

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:13am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/55 "2019-07-02T00:13:37Z")

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I can prove I’m a guy.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/56 "2019-07-02T00:17:30Z")

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I won’t ask for it. 🙂 And I would accept your M.D. as moderately supporting evidence as to your intelligence. (But I worked in a hospital for three decades, so it is not conclusive evidence to me. 🙂)

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**Author:** ![NLENTS](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nlents/32/1158_2.png) [@NLENTS](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/NLENTS)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/57 "2019-07-02T00:33:04Z")

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I love how the DI doesn’t even hide the fact that they lurk these forums to troll for things to write about. A form of confrontational voyeurism I guess, lol. Hi guys! Are you enjoying watching the grownups chat?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/58 "2019-07-02T00:35:30Z")

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There is nothing wrong with that!

PS had become the premier place for engaging ID. I’m glad they value the opinions of everyone here, even those with whom I disagree on many things, such as @Faizal_Ali.

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**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/59 "2019-07-02T01:00:00Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Suffice it to say his responses miss the mark by a wide margin.

But other than some cheap jabs (about your moniker) he actually engaged with what you said. I am happy because this moves the conversation forward. When I watched the video I thought Egnor had some good points. Then you made some good points (I am especially curious about the intellectual seizure) and now he’s responded.

Minus the slight bit of attitude on both sides, this is exactly the type of conversation that needs to be taking place for people to wrestle with what it means to be human in an AI/tech world, in my opinion.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/60 "2019-07-02T01:03:45Z")

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> [@Jordan](#):
>
> But other than some cheap jabs (about your moniker) he actually engaged with what you said. I

Engagement would involve actual direct contact between the two of us. I don’t know if he intended to inform me of the posts (I learned of them when another writer there emailed me to confirm my identity, and did not at first mention the articles, which were already up by then. OTOH, I didn’t email him about the thread here.

No comments allowed on his blog. Not much engagement possible there, is there?

I also don’t really see how he advanced the discussion. He pretty well just repeats the claims he made in the video, and does not really show any understanding of my points.

Anyway, he is probably reading this, so he knows there is an open invitation to discuss things here.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/michael-egnor-the-evidence-against-materialism/6652/61 "2019-07-02T01:49:52Z")

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> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> You have to specify a location in order for a velocity to make any sense.

No, you don’t.

> [@EyesShiningAngrily](#):
>
> Eyes and ears don’t create visions and sounds.

Yes, they do. They’re sense organs. Blind people can’t see. Deaf people can’t hear. Unless a disembodied consciousness has organs that react with photons, it won’t be able to see. Unless it has organs that react with vibrations, it won’t be able to hear. Or do you think it’s all just magic?

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