# My response to Michael Egnor's arguments against materialism

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [July 7, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899 "2019-07-07T01:11:58Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 17\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/1 "2019-07-07T01:11:58Z")

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> **[A Neurosurgeon Argues That Mind Functions Are Immaterial. Badly.](https://betterrightthanhappy.com/a-neurosurgeon-argues-that-mind-functions-are-immaterial-badly/)**
>
> Michael Egnor is a pediatric neurosurgeon who is also affiliated with the Discovery Institute, an organization which promotes the form of creationism that goes under the name of “Intelligent …

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**Author:** ![Jordan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jordan/32/756_2.png) [@Jordan](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Jordan)\
**Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/2 "2019-07-07T02:48:46Z")

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@Faizal_Ali, that is a really well done post, thanks for taking the time.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/3 "2019-07-07T20:42:21Z")

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Part two:

> **[A Neurosurgeon Argues That Mind Functions Are Immaterial. Badly. (Pt. 2)](https://betterrightthanhappy.com/a-neurosurgeon-argues-that-mind-functions-are-immaterial-badly-pt-2/)**
>
> This is the second in a series of posts discussing claims by Michael Egnor, a neurosurgeon and member of the creationist organization the Discovery Institute, that recent (and not so recent) neuros…

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/4 "2019-07-13T18:46:08Z")

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Part 3:

> **[A Neurosurgeon Argues That Mind Functions Are Immaterial. Badly. (Pt. 3)](https://betterrightthanhappy.com/a-neurosurgeon-argues-that-mind-functions-are-immaterial-badly-pt-3/)**
>
> This is my final post discussing creationist neurosurgeon Michael Egnor’s attempts to demonstrate that certain mental functions cannot be accounted for solely by the brain and, instead, indic…

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 13, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/5 "2019-07-13T21:43:06Z")

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Excellent job. Would you also be interested in the fish I have right here in this barrel?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/6 "2019-07-14T00:14:12Z")

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Hee hee. “Fish in a Barrel” might have been a better title for the blog.

I hope to take on some meatier subjects, unless I just give the whole thing up. Writing is slow hard work.

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**Author:** ![Robert\_Byers1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/robert_byers1/32/5158_2.png) [@Robert\_Byers1](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Robert_Byers1)\
**Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/7 "2019-07-14T04:45:51Z")

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I won’t hold against you being on the UoT but I don’t see why you press and stress egnor is being illogical etc.  
he simply is saying, what he has documented in heaps of cases/articles, of how the great damage to peoples skulls does not damage thier thinking ability. its in there. its just not coming out. thats the only damage.  
One/you can always say AHA where the thinking is evidenced THE brain there is not damahed. thts just guessing. the whole case is that it seems the whole brain is damaged or greatly BUT BINGO there one finds a thinking ability untouched by the damage.  
NOW I don’t agree we have brains but that the MIND is just the biblical word for memory.  
so any damage to peoples thinking abilities is either the triggering mechanism for the memory or the memory organ(s) itself.  
The soul/immaterial, is as perfect in thought as ever. However if the memory is interfered with its like a spectrum of being knocked out.  
egnor does a excellent case constantly on the unlikelyness that we are just a sum of a material bits called the brain. i would correct him to reject the brain thing and instead embrace the proven thing of memory. the brain is a old fashioned idea from the last centuries and never proven but just presumed.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/8 "2019-07-16T01:24:52Z")

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That’s certainly a new one on me.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 20, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/9 "2019-07-20T21:21:32Z")

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Latest:

> **[A Primer on Brain Connectivity: My (latest) Response to Michael Egnor](https://betterrightthanhappy.com/michael-egnor-responds/)**
>
> Dr. Michael Egnor I’ve been having an interesting discussion with Michael Egnor, a neurosurgeon and member of the creationist organization the Discovery Institute, over the question of whethe…

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**Author:** ![vjtorley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e36b37/32.png) [@vjtorley](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/vjtorley)\
**Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/10 "2019-07-21T18:42:30Z")

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@Faizal_Ali,

I’ve been reading your well-argued responses to Dr. Egnor’s columns. However, there’s an interesting point he makes about Libet’s experiments which I believe you haven’t yet addressed: Libet’s hypothesis of “free won’t” (which postulates that the immaterial will is free to veto impulses to act that arise in the brain until the last moment) remains tenable in the light of experimental findings, and what’s more, no neural correlate of this veto has yet been observed. Is he correct on this point?

(See [here](https://mindmatters.ai/2019/06/can-buzzwords-about-neural-networks-save-materialist-neuroscience/) and [here](https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-egnor-is-free-will-a-dangerous-myth/) and [here](https://evolutionnews.org/2019/06/science-uprising-episode-2-mind-denial/), for examples of this argument.)

Finally, re severing the corpus callosum: why does this generally not impair the patient’s “sense of self”?

Thank you for your time and trouble.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/11 "2019-07-21T19:58:01Z")

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Libet’s experiments don’t have anything to do with “materialism”. They are generally discussed in terms of whether they show free will exists, and it remains controversial as to what they actually demonstrate about that.

Egnor is again making the strange error of using measures of brain function as evidence for a mental function, and then using this finding to argue that the mental function is not a product of brain function. That’s just very odd reasoning. If extinction of a brain impulse prevents the subject from flexing his wrist, then this demonstrates that the decision to not flex the wrist, at the very least, involves and requires the brain, regardless of whether “free will” is involved. It may be that some additional “immaterial” process is involved, but this experiment gives no evidence for that.

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**Author:** ![vjtorley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e36b37/32.png) [@vjtorley](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/vjtorley)\
**Post date:** [July 21, 2019, 11:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/12 "2019-07-21T23:52:44Z")

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Thank you very much for your response, @Faizal_Ali. I’m not altogether clear on your logic, however. If extinction of a brain impulse prevents the subject from flexing his wrist, then that certainly demonstrates that the decision **to** flex the wrist involves and requires the brain, but I can’t see why it demonstrates that the decision **not to** flex the wrist involves and requires the brain, especially when (according to Egnor) there’s no neural trace of this snap decision (which he and Libet describe as “free won’t.”) Or am I missing something?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/13 "2019-07-22T00:20:28Z")

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There _is_ a neural trace of the decision: the cortical readiness potential flattens out.

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**Author:** ![vjtorley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e36b37/32.png) [@vjtorley](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/vjtorley)\
**Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/14 "2019-07-22T00:24:22Z")

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Thank you.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 22, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/15 "2019-07-22T15:14:18Z")

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Another response from the DI:

[https://evolutionnews.org/2019/07/explaining-abstract-thought-in-materialist-terms-the-horns-of-a-dilemma/](https://evolutionnews.org/2019/07/explaining-abstract-thought-in-materialist-terms-the-horns-of-a-dilemma/)

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/16 "2019-07-23T01:28:57Z")

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I respond to Klinghoffer.

> **[Why I Am Not a Materialist](https://betterrightthanhappy.com/why-i-am-not-a-materialist/?fbclid=IwAR0aI1YD-cVQz5hQAIbzRrJ_y_rZut2GQYwXAp_MuyvdnS2kvq95Inzc4UE)**
>
> David Klinghoffer There is a rumor going around the internet that I am a “materialist”.  This seems to have started with David Klinghoffer, a senior fellow with the creationist org…

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-response-to-michael-egnors-arguments-against-materialism/6899/17 "2019-07-25T01:00:12Z")

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> **[I’m Not a Neuroscientist (And Neither is Michael Egnor)](https://betterrightthanhappy.com/im-still-not-a-materialist-nor-a-neuroscientist/)**
>
> I promise, I do not intend for this blog to become “The Michael Egnor Show”, but the creationist neurosurgeon keeps writing stuff about me to which I feel compelled to respond. His late…