# My talk with Andrew Seidel about his book on America’s secular origins

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Society, Article\
**Created:** [July 23, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014 "2019-07-23T21:21:49Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 23, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/1 "2019-07-23T21:21:49Z")

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> **[My talk with Andrew Seidel about his book on America’s secular origins](https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/07/23/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-americas-secular-origins/)**
>
> As I wrote a while back, in June I had a 45-minute public discussion with Andrew Seidel, a constitutional attorney for the Freedom from Religion Foundation and its Director of Strategic Response. T…

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/2 "2019-07-24T00:29:25Z")

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Reading it now! Very well written.

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**Author:** ![Robert\_Byers1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/robert_byers1/32/5158_2.png) [@Robert\_Byers1](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Robert_Byers1)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/3 "2019-07-24T02:12:02Z")

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First. When a group uses a lame 1960’s term FREEDOM FROM RELIGION thus freedom fighters it right away discredits them Its boring. i couldn’t watch it but noticed the audiend and especially the pink haired one! Freedom for haor colour orthodoxy might be ain the coalition.  
America was a very evangelical/puritan/dissenting protestant yankee and a Anglican southerner. Everyone else just merged into these two. t They were more Christian then England or europe.  
Their great moral conclusions were exlusively based on protestant christian civilization. Except for normal conclusions common to mankind.  
the nation is a by product, uniquely for America, of the conclusions of the people.  
America was a protestant christian civilization and nation.  
If the nation was created separate from the conclusions of the people then who was that and that would be less democratic then old europe.  
any interference with Christian, especially protestant, manifestations in the country and the national state is UNAMERICAN and illegal. In fact this was recognized back then and they said the sTATE was not to pick sides in the diversity of protestant sects.  
It had nothing to do as weapon to separate the nation from common non sectarian conclusions about religion/God.  
they never thought that enemies would use a glorious concept of not letting the state interfere with religion and indeed to simple be seperate WOULD be used to attcak all religious persinality of a people and nation where ever they can say the state is somehow involved.  
Indeed today the state is used to attack religions by censorship/etc in public institutions.  
Tell this dude to get a real job and leave the people alone and stop oppresing religious people.  
The founding peoples of america would be ashamed of this person claiming any connection to them.  
hey patrick will you be offering a rebuttal so as its not just a use of a blog to attack those who are opposed to???

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 10:40am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/4 "2019-07-24T10:40:15Z")

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Andrew Seidel and FFRF will continue to work on numerous violations that Christian Nationalists commit on our secular Godless constitution. See you in court.

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**Author:** ![Djordje](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/djordje/32/3673_2.png) [@Djordje](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Djordje)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/5 "2019-07-24T15:14:02Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Christian Nationalists

We have a name for those: “Christofascists”.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/6 "2019-07-24T16:22:45Z")

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Christian Nationalists are strictly an American phenomena. It is characterized by the rise of Donald Trump and the support he gets from Evangelical Christians. The mission of Christian Nationalists are to take America back to its Judaeo-Christian roots. This is a fallacy as Seidel explains that the US was founded on secular humanists values of the Enlightenment.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/7 "2019-07-24T16:47:47Z")

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“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” - John Adams

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/8 "2019-07-24T17:59:18Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Consider that a prophecy, along with Daniel 2:43 (since there are dual fulfillments to some prophecies – in this case, the U.S. in addition to the traditionally understood Rome):

> [As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.](http://biblehub.com/daniel/2-43.htm)

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/9 "2019-07-24T18:23:57Z")

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ok a religious people of any and all religions? Certainly Adams was not advocating your brand of Christianity.

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/10 "2019-07-24T20:44:48Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> It is characterized by the rise of Donald Trump and the support he gets from Evangelical Christians.

I don’t completely agree with that characterization - these folks have been around longer than DT. I’d agree that Trump is symptomatic of Christian Nationalism.

> [@Patrick](#):
>
> The mission of Christian Nationalists are to take America back to its Judaeo-Christian roots.

Fallacy or no, that’s what they think they are doing.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 24, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/11 "2019-07-24T21:17:48Z")

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Nah, just those that are religiously atheistic (and trying to win proselytes 🙂).

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/12 "2019-07-25T00:50:37Z")

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How fortunate we are that both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were available as counter-influences to Adams.

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**Author:** ![Robert\_Byers1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/robert_byers1/32/5158_2.png) [@Robert\_Byers1](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Robert_Byers1)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/13 "2019-07-25T03:42:08Z")

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One of the places that the state does interfere with the church is in its censorship of conclusions that reflect religious conclusions. therefore, since these are subjects about truth, the state is saying religious conclusions are false. Therefore breaking the church/state barrier .if they are saying its a state ussue if the state pays for something. This is truly a attack on religion by the state. the censorship is not neutral.  
So another reason why this left wing hatred of Christianity in the nation is a fraud.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 3:54am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/14 "2019-07-25T03:54:00Z")

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Everyone was for separation of church and state, so that the state could not impinge on the various ‘denominations’. Now we have a new one that is trying to force the state to bend to it, and one of its vocal proponents is the FFRF.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/15 "2019-07-25T04:34:40Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> Now we have a new one that is trying to force the state to bend to it, and one of its vocal proponents is the FFRF.

That’s not what the FFRF does or is for. It exists to keep the state secular, i.e. not favoring any religion.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 10:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/16 "2019-07-25T10:22:11Z")

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President John Adams with unanimous consent of the US Senate signed the Treaty of Tripoli which says that “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 10:31am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/17 "2019-07-25T10:31:45Z")

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Saying that Daniel 2:43 is a prophecy on the United States Constitution or has anything to do with the separation of church and state in secular America is quite a stretch. The US Constitution is godless on purpose and the bible has had no authority nor validity in American society 250 years ago or now.

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 12:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/18 "2019-07-25T12:31:36Z")

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[https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/99-02-02-3102](https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/99-02-02-3102)

Adams was clearly talking about France and the horrors of the revolution, which paid lip service to Enlightenment values but did not act in accordance with them. Our Constitution wisely maximizes personal liberty, and Adams was concerned that without the bonds of morality and religion among the population at large, we might descend into the same kind of pit. That was obviously a real concern at the time given the example of France. To avoid that in the end depends on our people. Adams thought the Constitution itself wouldn’t prevent it if the people would allow it. He also thought morals and religion were necessary to prevent it. But today we have examples of well functioning secular states with strong morals and little religion. Morals are enough in the end–Adams was wrong about that. Religion itself would be worse than useless without the underlying morals. There are examples of that too.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/19 "2019-07-25T14:18:42Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Saying that Daniel 2:43 is a prophecy on the United States Constitution or has anything to do with the separation of church and state in secular America…

You misconstrued – I wasn’t saying anything of the sort, nor that Adams was not _for_ the separation of church and state, nor that we were ever a ‘Christian nation’. The quote and the prophecy merely suggest that what we are now seeing, the divisiveness of our country and politics, should not be a total surprise.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [July 25, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/my-talk-with-andrew-seidel-about-his-book-on-america-s-secular-origins/7014/20 "2019-07-25T14:27:08Z")

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> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> Morals are enough in the end…

And killing our children in utero is fine. We get the society we deserve, Columbines, soaring teen suicides and all.

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