# Newton's Four Rules **URL:** \ **Category:** Side Conversation\ **Created:** [July 23, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775 "2018-07-23T18:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/21 "2018-07-24T16:47:07Z")

No, not naturalistic. People had a huge hand in it. And odds were involved. The people kept a positive outlook thanks to their beliefs. That had quite a bit to do with it And people were able to use their intelligently designed ability to solve the problem. ---

No, good timing. ---

**Author:** ![Guy\_Coe](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/guy_coe/32/1972_2.png) [@Guy\_Coe](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Guy_Coe)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/23 "2018-07-24T17:51:07Z")

The supernatural was called upon by virtually all parties involved at the scene. It is a trivialization of their faith and a form of metaphysical and cultural arrogance to simply dismiss that, from where I sit. Here’s a behind the scenes look from an Australian angle. Hope you enjoy digging deeper. ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/24 "2018-07-24T20:06:24Z")

Yes, that is part of their faith. It served to give them hope. The supernatural was not required. ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/25 "2018-07-24T21:07:37Z")

Athletes credit God for Home Runs, timely hits, touchdowns, great catches, goals, etc. Doesn’t make it so. ---

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/26 "2018-07-25T03:41:26Z")

So, this got interesting… > [@JoeG](#): > > As for the rescue **there isn’t any need to call for the supernatural**. The rescuers were well trained. The kids didn’t have any reason to just die. So it was a case of humans do what we do. It was a designed rescue. It was **poor luck** that got them trapped. > [@swamidass](#): > > Interesting. So you don’t think God was involved because a naturalistic story can explain it away? > [@JoeG](#): > > No, not naturalistic. **People had a huge hand** in it. And **odds were involved**. So you don’t think God was involved because a “naturalistic + human intelligence + randomness” story can be constructed? Wow. > [@JoeG](#): > > **The supernatural was not required.** > [@JoeG](#): > > **Athletes credit God for Home Runs, timely hits, touchdowns, great catches, goals, etc. Doesn’t make it so.** Now I understand. @JoeG you are one of those **_deists_** that the ID movement keeps warning me about. That explains why you like Newton, [he was a deist too](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton). You believe God created everything, and then basically stepped away. As long as you can imagine some story to explains things, you are certain God was not there. I suppose many of the rest of us here are more orthodox Christians. We think that God can be acting in the world, even when it _seems_ like it is just random chance. In fact, I believe that God providentially governs _ **all** _ things, including the random chance in this story. So tell us more about your religious background @JoeG. It is not often here we come across a deist Christian like Newton. Tell us more. ---

**Author:** ![jongarvey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jongarvey/32/5_2.png) [@jongarvey](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jongarvey)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 7:40am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/27 "2018-07-25T07:40:04Z")

> [@swamidass](#): > > Newton, [he was a deist too](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Isaac_Newton). Calumny! Actually Newton was an Arian (which isn’t any better, really), but clearly a theist, as his dispute with the Deist Leibniz about direct divine intervention in planetaruy motion proves. Joe might be more secular than that, from his remarks here and at UD. ---

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 8:30am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/28 "2018-07-25T08:30:38Z")

> [@jongarvey](#): > > Joe might be more secular than that, from his remarks here and at UD. Is that true @JoeG? ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 12:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/29 "2018-07-25T12:13:23Z")

Wow, indeed. I do not see any reason to invoke God when it is not required. It isn’t that I can imagine some story explains things. It is that an Intelligent Designer was not necessary to solve the problem beyond giving us the ability to do so. I am not a Christian. Jesus is not God. If Jesus is God then there wasn’t any sacrifice at his crucifixion. You are free to believe God is acting even when it seems like randomness. Me, I am more of an evidence person. ---

**Author:** ![Guy\_Coe](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/guy_coe/32/1972_2.png) [@Guy\_Coe](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Guy_Coe)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/30 "2018-07-25T14:48:05Z")

What evidence do you have that Jesus is not divine? Have you ever examined the voluminous evidence available for the resurrection? ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/31 "2018-07-25T16:51:44Z")

There isn’t any evidence that Jesus was/is divine. The Trinity is contrived and being resurrected doesn’t make Jesus God. ---

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/32 "2018-07-25T16:53:18Z")

> [@JoeG](#): > > There isn’t any evidence that Jesus was/is divine. The Trinity is contrived and being resurrected doesn’t make Jesus God. What is Christadelphian? ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/33 "2018-07-25T16:57:01Z")

> [@swamidass](#): > > What is Christadelphian? ???- FYI, Newton was a Unitarian ---

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/34 "2018-07-25T17:08:23Z")

> [@JoeG](#): > > > What is Christadelphian? > > ???- FYI, Newton was a Unitarian But what are you? ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/35 "2018-07-25T17:22:39Z")

I am human. I do not belong to any religion. I was brought up Catholic and went to Catholic schools for a few years but I grew out of it. To me there isn’t any one religion that has it right ---

**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/36 "2018-07-25T17:30:20Z")

> [@JoeG](#): > > I am human. I do not belong to any religion. I was brought up Catholic and went to Catholic schools for a few years but I grew out of it. To me there isn’t any one religion that has it right And you are an ardent IDist that lives on the UnCommon Descent forums. Interesting. Tell us more. Why do you believe there is a God? Are you a deist or theist? What are committed to ID? Is it the anti-establishment ethos or something more? ---

**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/37 "2018-07-25T17:32:12Z")

> [@swamidass](#): > > What is Christadelphian? As the name suggests, they consider all Christians to be “brothers”. They are indeed unitarians. Here’s their doctrinal statement: > **[The Christadelphian Faith](http://www.christadelphia.org/belief.php)** > > The Christadelphians: What we believe ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/38 "2018-07-25T17:51:56Z")

I don’t live at UD, but yes ID is the best explanation for our existence. And ID is not anti-evolution. Being intelligently designed to evolve and evolving by means of intelligent design is still evolution. I say the evidence points to a higher intelligence. Be that God or some other intentional agency. Just the fact of the Earth is evidence enough- its rotational speed; its just-so climate; the large Moon to stabilize its rotation and provide us with information gathering eclipses- add us an the evidence is overwhelming. If the “establishment” had the science and a method to test their claims that would be something. But I am not holding my breath ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/39 "2018-07-25T17:53:11Z")

I think Dr Joshua was playing “Jeopardy” with me. He was guessing that I may be a Christadelphian. ---

**Author:** ![JoeG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@JoeG](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/JoeG)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775/40 "2018-07-25T22:19:45Z")

OK, so the reason I go with and site Newton’s four rules is because they allow us to investigate telic processes without falling into some black hole of the supernatural. Telic vs non-telic; natural vs artificial- we use our knowledge of cause and effect relationships to help us with the inference. If the design inference is warranted we still search for possible non-telic processes until that itch is scratched. [Previous page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775.md?page=1) [Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/newtons-four-rules/775.md?page=3)