# No One Needs Religion to Live a Moral Life

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Society, Article\
**Created:** [September 11, 2019, 12:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804 "2019-09-11T00:22:51Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:13am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/21 "2019-09-11T07:13:33Z")

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No, it’s a fact.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/22 "2019-09-11T07:22:37Z")

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> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> It’s not apparent to everyone that gods exist

This is a fact.

> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> or incumbent upon anyone to believe in them.

This is not a fact. Its an opinion.  
My take on it is that - Since God exists and is our creator, we have a duty towards him.

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/23 "2019-09-11T07:36:39Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> My take on it is that - Since God exists and is our creator, we have a duty towards him.

The key words there are “my take”. What if it’s not my take? Are you going to make me believe it? In fact, it is not incumbent upon me to believe it.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/24 "2019-09-11T07:49:05Z")

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> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> What if it’s not my take? Are you going to make me believe it? In fact, it is not incumbent upon me to believe it

How is it possible for me or anyone to “make” you believe in anything? That’s impossible. I am just pointing out an error in logic on your part.

You have the freedom to believe whatever you want, however that doesn’t change what is “incumbent” on you.  
Let me give you an example to explain. I might be unaware that i owe the government some money as taxes. I might sincerely believe all my dues are paid and settled. However, that doesn’t mean its not incumbent on me to pay the taxes which i actually owe in reality.  
Its not enough to be unaware of something, or hold to a belief. To not have an thing “incumbent” on ourselves, we also need to be correct in our beliefs.

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:56am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/25 "2019-09-11T07:56:48Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> How is it possible for me or anyone to “make” you believe in anything? That’s impossible. I am just pointing out an error in logic on your part.
> 
> You have the freedom to believe whatever you want, however that doesn’t change what is “incumbent” on you.

You’re not talking about the same kind of “incumbent” that I am. I am literally pointing out that I, and anyone else, have the freedom to believe what I want, which includes not believing in gods or a particular god. Judged solely on this basis, your belief in a god is no better as a moral foundation than my belief in a non-theistic moral paradigm.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:02am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/26 "2019-09-11T08:02:05Z")

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> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> I am literally pointing out that I, and anyone else, have the freedom to believe what I want, which includes not believing in gods or a particular god.

Yes you do.

> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> Judged solely on this basis, your belief in a god is no better as a moral foundation than my belief in a non-theistic moral paradigm.

This does not logically follow.  
If God exists, then the real nature of God matters when it comes to deciding what is a “good” moral foundation.  
If He doesn’t- no moral foundation is good in itself. Hence all moral foundation including that of a child rapist are equally meaningless except in a subjective sense.

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/27 "2019-09-11T08:20:18Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> This does not logically follow.

Sure it does. If judged solely on that basis. You could have the world’s shiniest morality, but if it has to be based on a belief in a god that people don’t have to believe in, it has no better of a foundation than other moral systems.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> If God exists, then the real nature of God matters when it comes to deciding what is a “good” moral foundation.  
> If He doesn’t- no moral foundation is good in itself. Hence all moral foundation including that of a child rapist are equally meaningless except in a subjective sense.

You may believe that, but we don’t know if any gods exist. I would contend that morality in itself is meaningful whether or not gods exist. Are you saying that the acts of a child rapist, in themselves, are meaningless?

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:29am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/28 "2019-09-11T08:29:26Z")

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> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> Sure it does. If judged solely on that basis

it cannot be judged solely on that basis. You are starting from the assumption that morality exists only in a subjective sense.  
If God exists, morality is not subjective.

> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> I would contend that morality in itself is meaningful whether or not gods exist.

And i would acknowledge that its your personal subjective conviction.  
You are free to contend for factually wrong or logically impossible things.

> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> Are you saying that the acts of a child rapist, in themselves, are meaningless?

In a subjective sense, they are full of meaning. For the rapist, there might be a sense of satisfaction/pleasure or intense remorse. For the victim, there could be intense pain, suffering and hopefully a resilience that will help him/her to overcome the trauma. All of these things have meaning in a subjective sense and effect our actions in the real world.  
But, without God, they are neither good or evil in themselves. They are just things that happen/have happened.

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**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:32am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/29 "2019-09-11T08:32:44Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> That’s your opinion. However, i was explaining why theists connect God with objective moral standards.
> 
> The fact that human beings are convinced of their own existence as conscious beings and have a tendency to view things in a moral framework all point to God Imo.

The **fact** that humans can’t agree on a god (or gods), nor determine or agree on what those supposed objective standards are, points to your god being one of many invented fictions and your objective moral standard being a pipe-dream.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/30 "2019-09-11T08:35:16Z")

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> [@Roy](#):
>
> The **fact** that humans can’t agree on a god (or gods), nor determine or agree on what those supposed objective standards are

Human beings cannot agree on a lot of things. Are you suggesting that only things human beings agree upon exist in reality?

Do I assume that the solar system did not exist until human beings could agree that it does and the earth revolves around the sun instead of vice versa?  
This is a startling claim to make.

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**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:42am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/31 "2019-09-11T08:42:25Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> > [@Roy](#):
> >
> > The **fact** that humans can’t agree on a god (or gods), nor determine or agree on what those supposed objective standards are
> 
> Human beings cannot agree on a lot of things. Are you suggesting that only things human beings agree upon exist in reality?

No, I’m saying that the wide disagreement on the nature of god (or gods) and their associated moral codes, if indeed there are any, and your failure to acknowledge that widespread disagreement, indicates that your opinion is wrong and that your so-called objective moral code is nothing of the sort. .

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:43am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/32 "2019-09-11T08:43:56Z")

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> [@Roy](#):
>
> No, I’m saying that the wide disagreement on the nature of god (or gods) and their associated moral codes, if indeed there are any, and your failure to acknowledge that widespread disagreement, indicates that your opinion is wrong and that your so-called objective moral code is nothing of the sort

There is no logic to your claim. Human agreement or disagreement does not change reality.

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**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:53am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/33 "2019-09-11T08:53:46Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> > [@Roy](#):
> >
> > No, I’m saying that the wide disagreement on the nature of god (or gods) and their associated moral codes, if indeed there are any, and your failure to acknowledge that widespread disagreement, indicates that your opinion is wrong and that your so-called objective moral code is nothing of the sort
> 
> There is no logic to your claim. Human agreement or disagreement does not change reality.

There is no relevance or sign of understanding in your reply.

Your opinion is not reality.

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 9:04am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/34 "2019-09-11T09:04:53Z")

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> [@Roy](#):
>
> Your opinion is not reality.

Agreed. My opinion might not be reality.  
However, your claim that disagreement in theology between human beings is proof that God doesn’t exist is false.  
Do you see the flaw in the logic?

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**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 11:21am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/35 "2019-09-11T11:21:35Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> > [@Roy](#):
> >
> > Your opinion is not reality.
> 
> Agreed. My opinion might not be reality.  
> However, your claim that disagreement in theology between human beings is proof that God doesn’t exist is false.

I said nothing at all about proof.

> [@](#):
>
> Do you see the flaw in the logic?

Yes. You’re attacking straw-men.

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**Author:** ![david.heddle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/david.heddle/32/5620_2.png) [@david.heddle](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/david.heddle)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 11:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/36 "2019-09-11T11:25:58Z")

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The theological answer some would give (including me) is that of course atheists can lead a moral life (1) and of course morality does not come from the bible. Nevertheless, this theology goes, even though the atheist doesn’t know or acknowledge it, their morality does come from God. It is God’s common grace applied to all people, whether they acknowledge it or not, that prevents them from being more wicked than they are. (If it is not obvious, I’m Calvinistic.)

Obviously this is unfalsifiable nonsense to the atheist. I just mention it for its own sake. It is the explanation (to ourselves) that some of us have as to why atheists are moral without religion or faith. A corollary is that the same explanation applies to believers–we are not moral because we believe in God or read the bible, but because God 's grace is restraining our sinful nature, (2) at least to the extent that we can live together and form societies.

* * *

(1) Contrary to the notion that some atheists have, that Christians think of them as immoral, the most common reference to atheists that I have heard in church over the years is that it is to our shame (Christians) that in regards to morality we are not better but rather indistinguishable from atheists.

(2) In this model, when God “hardens a heart” (e.g. Pharaoh) or turns people over to their own nature (Rom 1), he is not making them wicked, rather he is removing restraining grace.

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**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 11:55am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/37 "2019-09-11T11:55:09Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> it cannot be judged solely on that basis. You are starting from the assumption that morality exists only in a subjective sense.

I’m only judging it on that basis for the purpose of my argument. I am pointing out that the god you use for the foundation of your morality is as much of a “personal subjective preference” (your words) as any other basis for morality.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> And i would acknowledge that its your personal subjective conviction.  
> You are free to contend for factually wrong or logically impossible things.

Just as your god is your personal subjective conviction.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> But, without God, they are neither good or evil in themselves. They are just things that happen/have happened.

Well, I hope you keep believing in God then, but just in case, please stay far away from my children.

> All of these things have meaning in a subjective sense and effect our actions in the real world.

They have real effects in the physical world which we can make objective moral judgments about, provided we can agree on some moral truths. For example, is it better for a child to be raped, or not to be?

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**Author:** ![Ashwin\_s](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ashwin_s/32/4017_2.png) [@Ashwin\_s](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Ashwin_s)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 12:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/38 "2019-09-11T12:05:37Z")

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> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> They have real effects in the physical world which we can make objective moral judgments about, provided we can agree on some moral truths. For example, is it better for a child to be raped, or not to be?

We can agree that it’s better such things don’t happen… not only you and me, but the vast majority of human beings would agree. That’s why we have laws to protect children.

However, that doesn’t make it an objective reality. There are people who engage in child trafficking and people who make money off such a bussiness. The moral authority to judge such people ultimately comes from God’s moral laws.

> [@John\_Dalton](#):
>
> I’m only judging it on that basis for the purpose of my argument

That’s a very narrow way to judge things. It just bypasses the crux of the argent I presented by your fiat.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Dalton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_dalton/32/1263_2.png) [@John\_Dalton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Dalton)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/39 "2019-09-11T12:08:54Z")

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> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> That’s a very narrow way to judge things. It just bypasses the crux of the argent I presented by your fiat.

I was responding to a single point you made initially. You seemed to be rejecting non-theistic morality at least partially on the basis that it relies on beliefs as a foundation. I’m pointing out that theistic morality has the same problem. It was never my intent to judge all aspects of morality on that basis.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> We can agree that it’s better such things don’t happen… not only you and me, but the vast majority of human beings would agree. That’s why we have laws to protect children.

Absolutely.

> [@Ashwin\_s](#):
>
> However, that doesn’t make it an objective reality. There are people who engage in child trafficking and people who make money off such a bussiness. The moral authority to judge such people ultimately comes from God’s moral laws.

Well, I don’t agree with you on the last sentence. I do agree that we can morally judge such people though, so I hope we can get by on that 🙂

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![r\_speir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@r\_speir](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/r_speir)\
**Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/no-one-needs-religion-to-live-a-moral-life/7804/40 "2019-09-11T12:46:10Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Morality doesn’t originate from a holy book.

Yes, it absolutely does. I strongly believe morality apart from God does not exist. If true, then the very title of the book or article or whatever it is, is self-defeating.

Now, if you are talking about living a good life, and being even-tempered, and not returning evil for evil, then yes, all should pursue that - theists as well as a-theists. But moral character is a divine attribute. It does not exist naturally in humans.

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