# Our Front Porch

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406>\
**Category:** Peaceful Science\
**Created:** [October 24, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406 "2018-10-24T04:07:24Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/1 "2018-10-24T04:07:24Z")

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> **[Our Front Porch](https://peacefulscience.org/articles/front-porch/)**
>
> So have you heard the one about the atheist, the creationist, and the computational biologist? Sounds like the start of a joke, doesn’t it? But what if it wasn’t the start of a joke, but the start of a conversation?

> So have you heard the one about the atheist, the creationist, and the computational biologist? Sounds like the start of a joke, doesn’t it? But what if it wasn’t the start of a joke, but the start of a conversation?

This summarizes what @rogero learned from a few weeks observing us all and asking us what [What is the Value of Peaceful Science?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/what-is-the-value-of-peaceful-science/2013)

> As [he explains this experiment](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/wittgensteins-lion-seeking-peace/2265/3),
> 
> > In the end, that is our crazy bet. We hope we can talk to Wittgenstein’s lion, and some how find some common ground. I’m hopeful, but it remains to be seen how far this experiment might go.

Thank you @Rogero for an excellent article.

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**Author:** ![Guy\_Coe](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/guy_coe/32/1972_2.png) [@Guy\_Coe](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Guy_Coe)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/2 "2018-10-24T04:10:11Z")

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Have you heard the one about how God made the world in seven days, only to start taking complaints on the eighth? : )

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/3 "2018-10-24T19:35:28Z")

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@Patrick and the atheist/agnostis, what are your thoughts? @nwrickert @John_Harshman @Dan_Eastwood

My ID friends, we have had some good times and bad times on the forum. How can we do better for you? @Kirk @bjmiller @Agauger @EricMH

BioLogos friends, we have also had some good and bad times too. How can we do better? @Kathryn_Applegate @Brad_Kramer @Elle @pevaquark @randy @gbrooks9 @T.j_Runyon

For those of you who do not affirm common descent, how can we do better? @Michael_Callen @J.E.S @AJRoberts

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**Author:** ![AJRoberts](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ajroberts/32/359_2.png) [@AJRoberts](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AJRoberts)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/4 "2018-10-24T20:47:08Z")

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Better to say we don’t affirm common descent rather than “evolution” since evolution is equivocal… aj

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**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/5 "2018-10-24T20:48:30Z")

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Isn’t it better to say you don’t affirm universal common descent?

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/6 "2018-10-24T20:48:39Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> @Patrick and the atheist/agnostis, what are your thoughts? @nwrickert @John_Harshman @Dan_Eastwood

That blog post is too long.

I don’t have any disagreements. But most people won’t read it all the way through, and it won’t do much to attract new interest to the site.

Just my opinion.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/7 "2018-10-24T20:56:00Z")

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> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> That blog post is too long.
> 
> I don’t have any disagreements. But most people won’t read it all the way through, and it won’t do much to attract new interest to the site.

I guess I can see why some people might think it too long—but I was fine with it. I come from a time when we skimmed material if we thought it too long and then we decided whether to go back and read further on some points. Also, we were taught to structure every paragraph so that the first and/or last sentence of each paragraph provided a summary of that paragraph. So English composition was taught with skimmers in mind, I suppose.

If an article is long, I can always have that option of skimming—but if it is overly short and fails to sufficiently expand on its main points, I may be left unclear on the author’s intent. So I prefer long. I’m probably an odd duck that way.

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**Author:** ![AJRoberts](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ajroberts/32/359_2.png) [@AJRoberts](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AJRoberts)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/8 "2018-10-24T21:35:44Z")

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yes, it is.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/9 "2018-10-24T21:36:42Z")

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> [@AJRoberts](#):
>
> Better to say we don’t affirm common descent rather than “evolution” since evolution is equivocal… aj

> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> Isn’t it better to say you don’t affirm universal common descent?

> [@AJRoberts](#):
>
> yes, it is.

Done.

In what sense do you affirm evolution?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/10 "2018-10-24T21:39:46Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> > I don’t have any disagreements. But most people won’t read it all the way through, and it won’t do much to attract new interest to the site.
> 
> I guess I can see why some people might think it too lon

I am of the opinion that **_essays_** are an important form to be recovered. This is why are blog posts can be quite long. Most ideas are best developed in more than a sound bite. Smaller contributes are best in dialogue, as we see on the forum. Ultimately, I’m trying to influence opinions of highly motivated people, not attract mere eyeballs. Essays are a time tested way of doing this.

That being said, this post was really two posts at once. One was a short update on Peaceful Sceince. Perhaps I need to start posting those separately.

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**Author:** ![AJRoberts](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ajroberts/32/359_2.png) [@AJRoberts](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AJRoberts)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/11 "2018-10-24T21:40:37Z")

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Congratulation! and Happy Birthday!

> _This month, [our bustling forum hit about 80,000 views per month](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/a-growing-forum-status-update/730/11), and is becoming our lively front porch with all sorts of interesting things. A book deal on the Genealogical Adam is now officially signed with Intervarsity Press Academic, and my first draft is nearly done. Recently, our work with [Science for Seminaries](http://www.scienceforseminaries.org/)and Concordia Seminary was in the spotlight at [WIRED](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/peaceful-science-covered-in-wired-magazine/1996) and [RealClearLife](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/swamidass-and-peaceful-science-in-realclearlife/2175), leading to an entertaining [exchange with Jerry Coyne](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/coyne-aaas-and-swamidass-in-wired-article/2130). This comes on the heels of about [15 articles of quality engagement from the Discovery Institute](http://peacefulscience.org/much-to-discuss/) as well. [Conversations with Reasons to Believe have begun](http://peacefulscience.org/assess-rtb-model) to assess the scientific details of their human origins model._
> 
>  
> 
> _Next week, I will be giving eight talks in eight days, including at [FaithAscent in St Louis](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/jeremy-smith-i-disagrees-with-dr-swamidass/1999) and at Hong Kong University on “[Of Apes and Artificial Minds: The Paradox of Human Exceptionalism](http://faithandscience.hku.hk/events/public-lectures/of-apes-and-artificial-minds.html),” On top of it all, I turned 40 last week, graduated my second PhD student, and am expecting my second child in December. A big month, and more to come._

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 10:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/12 "2018-10-24T22:38:08Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> and the atheist/agnostis, what are your thoughts?

I think it is excellent. It has certainly exceeded my expectations as a place where diverse views can be discussed (and argued) but then **reason** always seems to prevail. A key feature is that there is enough latitude given by Dr. Swamidass and the moderators to allow the envelope to be stretched and then get back to serious discussion. Who can forget “Blasphemy Sunday” proclamation by atheists protesting heavy moderation. I am equally impressed with the number of true experts in many subjects.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/13 "2018-10-24T22:46:31Z")

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> [@Patrick](#):
>
> Who can forget “Blasphemy Sunday” proclamation by atheists protesting heavy moderation.

I’ll never forget that, hehe. Though I recall it was protesting _any_ moderation, not heavy moderation.

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**Author:** ![Rogero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Rogero](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rogero)\
**Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 11:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/14 "2018-10-24T23:33:46Z")

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It’s been my genuine pleasure.

> [@system](#):
>
> As [he explains this experiment](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/wittgensteins-lion-seeking-peace/2265/3),

But of course, that’s not my explanation of the forum but a quotation of yours @swamidass. 😉

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**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/15 "2018-10-25T00:26:27Z")

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@AJRoberts

Did you mean we should assert Common Descent, not Evolution?

Or that we should assert Evolution, not Common Descent?

One of them, at the very least, has to be asserted.

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**Author:** ![AJRoberts](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ajroberts/32/359_2.png) [@AJRoberts](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AJRoberts)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/16 "2018-10-25T00:42:14Z")

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I don’t understand what is difficult to understand about my statement. Stop saying RTB (or AJRoberts) doesn’t affirm evolution. Joshua edited his statement to which my comment was directed. I’m glad he did; it is now more accurate. But the fact that he did seems to be confusing late comers.

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**Author:** ![AJRoberts](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ajroberts/32/359_2.png) [@AJRoberts](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AJRoberts)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 12:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/17 "2018-10-25T00:48:46Z")

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Evolution is equivocal. The statement you were making above was trying to simplify and categorize our/my basic position. We/I do not affirm universal common descent. That’s all the details I have time for today, sorry.

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**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/18 "2018-10-25T01:27:21Z")

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I think @AJRoberts has made it pretty clear before on this forum she accepts that evolution happens and believes it happens the majority of the time within families and orders. There are just basic Created types. For example, there were was an original Tyrannosaur type that all subsequent Tyrannosaurs evolved from. So she seems to accept Separate ancestry. More of an orchard than a single tree. This is how I have interpreted her statements anyway.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/19 "2018-10-25T01:33:18Z")

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> [@AJRoberts](#):
>
> Evolution is equivocal. The statement you were making above was trying to simplify and categorize our/my basic position. We/I do not affirm universal common descent. That’s all the details I have time for today, sorry.

My take away from this is to be more careful in phrasing the RTB position, using language that you’ve tuned in this where I can. This is an example of a place I can.

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**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 2:23am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406/20 "2018-10-25T02:23:24Z")

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> [@AJRoberts](#):
>
> Evolution is equivocal. The statement you were making above was trying to simplify and categorize our/my basic position. We/I do not affirm universal common descent. That’s all the details I have time for today, sorry.

@AJRoberts

If you keep saying Evolution is equivocal… nobody will know what you think the word is supposed to mean.

And Common Descent, without the Universal, usually just means Speciation.

So… can you affirm Speciation?

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/our-front-porch/2406.md?page=2)