Political correctness and universities

No, the focus of the creationist challenge is to drive good teachers out of their district, or even the profession. I speak from direct first hand experience, having known an excellent teacher who left a school in rural KY after being endlessly harassed by conservative Christians, because this teacher had the audacity to broach the subject of human evolution in middle school. This sort of drama plays out across the Bible Belt every year.

In the poorer districts, teaching appointments are ad hoc, and the students are suffering. This is a far bigger factor in the lousiness of American science education than whether “teaching the controversy over evolution” is done in 9th Grade biology.

As I stated above. Conservative Christians are no friends of science education. Period.

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Eddie. Some things are just wrong. Period. Racism is wrong. Bigotry and misogyny are wrong. Period. I’m not laying down my life for these people. It’s absurd. I get the rhetoric sounds good in principle but try to think about this stuff for real.

What planet are you living on? I’ve been around universities long enough to have seen dozens of cases of profs in various departments take advantage of undergraduates for sexual purposes. And guess what? Most of the profs who are guilty of that are card-carrying leftists and liberals of varying descriptions, haters of fundamentalism, traditional religion, Republicans, conservatives, etc. If you think that by hiring only liberals and leftists, and never hiring any conservatives, you are going to stop improper sexual relationships between faculty and students, you have lost the use of your reasoning faculty.

And of course, I never said anyone should hire a known misogynist. I said that it wasn’t the duty of faculty members, when hiring someone, to try to detect incipient fascism, incipient sexism, etc. There are academics who think that Plato was fascist. (They’re dead wrong.) Those same people, if interviewing a candidate who appears to like some aspect of Plato’s thought, will, by your habit of making unwarranted leaps in logic, decide that the candidate must be, or probably is, a fascist, and so, by your reckoning, they will be justified in rejecting him. But what gives them the right to make such impertinent and presumptuous judgments? It’s not their job to divine, based on loose impressions, who might be sexist or right-wing or whatever. It’s their job to evaluate qualifications.

There is of course a systematic error in all you reasoning here, in that you are assuming that because someone is “conservative” they are probably also misogynist, racist, etc. But there is no necessary connection there, and I have not pleaded for hiring misogynists, racists, etc., but only for hiring more conservatives. Puck Mendelssohn here can explain to you that “conservative” need not mean all the things you seem to be reading into it. If you can’t dissociate “conservative” in your mind from Donald Trump and Ken Ham, then it’s high time you read some history and political philosophy, and learned the full range of meanings of the term.

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You act as if it doesn’t matter. Of course it matters. Stop acting like it doesn’t.

I never said that. Not once. You said universities shouldn’t concern themselves with whether or not a hire or a misogynist or a racist because in your mind smart people can be reasoned with and won’t hold these positions. That’s just ridiculous.

Your anecdotal tales accusing everyone of malfeasance except your conservative Christian “tribe” are getting deep enough to require hip waders. :roll_eyes:

Why can’t your buddies be hired or rejected on their own merits? Why do you think we need an Affirmative Action policy for science-hating Fundamentalists?

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Here’s what you said…

Um…actually, it does. It shows that those ideals are mere hyperbole, rather than being sincere formulations. Ideals “in the air” will not do anyone any good; it is the translation of those ideals into deeds that matters, and when people learn that the deeds do not follow, they discard the ideals with them.

No, that’s not hyperbole. First, one of the principal reasons that public school curricula de-emphasize evolution is the evil which the creationists have already done. Second, the culture war is not limited to evolution, and it touches most of those other subjects you mention. Look, for example, at history, where crazy fundamentalist revisionists like David Barton are at work. This is a broad-based war against civilized values and a pluralistic society, and our children are a principal battleground.

And Dinesh D’Souza et al. are going to help us there, are they? Come, now. There is a general attack upon the integrity of public education. Your people aren’t calling for massive improvements in public education budgets, hiring and infrastructure, and then tacking ID Creationism on as a kind of ugly footnote to their vast, humane program of improving mankind’s lot by educating the children.

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Show your work.

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Interesting, because that is a typically conservative as opposed to modern Arts-academic stance, which typically says that all standards of right and wrong are culture-bound and need to be “deconstructed”. So probably you would have a hard time being hired in a modern Arts department, for holding to a conservative, unenlightened, old-fashioned idea of objective truth. But moving on…

I never contended otherwise. But before one can decide that Position X is racist, one first has to read or listen to Position X. If a sociologist notes that blacks commit more crimes in US inner cities than whites do, is that person racist for saying so? I have many times seen accusations of that sort thrown around in modern social and political discourse. Or is the person only racist if he goes on to say something like, “But of course blacks can’t help it, they have these genetic impulses…”? Of those two statements, I would disagree with the second, but the first might well be true – I would have to look at the data to know. And if the first statement is true, merely reporting it would not be racist, in my view. As for the second statement, while I disagree with it, I would not censor it. I would defend the person’s right to say it – and then proceed to publicly demolish it as a falsehood. You, apparently, would not even defend the person’s right to say it. Would you throw him in jail merely for saying it? Would you fine him? How would you propose to stop him from saying it? I think the dangers of not allowing him to say it far outweigh the dangers of allowing him to say it. If he is allowed to say it in a public context, he can be challenged, defeated, and humiliated in that same public context – which would be a good result, even from your point of view.

I find it hard to stomach the arguments of Holocaust deniers, but nonetheless, the little I have observed of such arguments, when conducted in public, leaves me in no doubt that the Holocaust denier always ends up looking terrible on any public platform where challenge and debate is allowed. Even if some members in the audience at first have some intellectual doubt about the Holocaust, by the end of the debate the Holocaust denier’s presentation is so filled with hate and negative emotion, and his arguments are so obviously special pleading, that most of the “undecideds” are likely to turn against him; and the few undecideds that he wins over are the sort of person that no rational argument could dissuade anyway.

Am I saying universities should invite Holocaust deniers to speak? Of course not. They should invite speakers who have academically plausible hypotheses to present, and given the track record of Holocaust denial, there is no reason to think that a Holocaust denier will come up with an academically plausible case. But suppose someone, say, an evolutionary biologist like Susan Crockford, argues that the polar bear numbers in the Arctic have not declined, but are rising. Should a university invite such a person to speak? I say, why not, if the person is a qualified scientist who has studied polar bear numbers? The person might be right or wrong, but is not a “climate change denialist” merely for doubting that polar bear numbers have declined. (In fact, they haven’t declined, and if anything have gone up slightly in recent years, but that’s neither here nor there for my point.) But there would be lobby groups at some universities wanting to rescind an invitation to such a person, on the alleged grounds that a person who doubts the imminent extinction of the polar bears must be “anti-environmentalist” or (that ultimate sin) “anti-science.” This would an example of hysterical, unwarranted reaction to a thesis one did not not find appealing. (And you can be sure that if such a case ever did happen, the students and faculty screaming at the university President to rescind the invitation would all have first learned their “climate science” from that scientific incompetent, Al Gore.)

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No. Because evolution is a bedrock organizing principle in the life sciences so not teaching evolution affects the entire biology curriculum. Creationists in many parts of the country have succeeded in watering down the public school science curriculum long ago.

I went to public school in KY and was not once taught anything about evolution. Not once. Why? Was there a law? No. Were the teachers and school boards all creationists? Probably not. They simply did not want to deal with parents complaints and creationists have succeeded in ginning up pastors to spread the idea that evolution was evil. So they just avoided evolution completely.

So please spare me this BS that it’s all liberals who want to stifle free speech and all moderate rational Christian conservatives laying down their lives for academic freedom. I’m not buying it.

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Eddie like to make these sort of unsupported scurrilous attacks on anyone not of his conservative Christian “tribe”. To him all conservative Christians are poor victims and martyrs who are never responsible for anything bad. Everyone else is atheist / materialist / God hater / ultra-liberal who despise free speech, liberty, probably apple pie and mom too. :roll_eyes:

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Persecution complex is strong with this one.

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I dont work in academia. However, i am curious on how a faculty can identify “potential” racists or “potential” sexists.
If my company refused to hire people based on their political, gender views etc (whether “potential” or “otherwise”). I would call the hiring process biased. Why should this be different in universities?
Are you proposing that a hiring system should be biased in a particular way?
Are universisties somehow above such concerns?

I have no idea. You will have to ask Eddie since he’s the one who brought it up in terms of letting “potential” fascists have a platform

And yes that’s what I’m proposing. Misogynists, racists and fascists are not protected classes under US law as far as I’m aware. The lawyers in the group can chime in to confirm.

No, I disagree again. Sometimes people know that an ideal is right, but lack the personal courage to live up to it. The result is that they feel ashamed afterward. But why ashamed? Because they are aware of having failed to do what they ought to have done. You are being far too cynical. And that sort of cynicism is not what I associate with someone who calls himself a “conservative.” :slight_smile:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn’t think we were talking about the culture wars generally here. You started out talking specifically about creationism and creationists and their activities re the schools. I was responding only to that. Now you are throwing in something else. I have no idea who David Barton is, but I would guess that he has had zero influence on the history curriculum in 99% of the USA. But if I’m wrong, please tell me what nefarious things he has done and which states have altered the history curriculum under his influence.

Uhh… “My people?” Because I cited D’Souza once, as one example of a critic of higher education, he is now one of “my people”? Even though I explicitly said I didn’t like some of his other ideas and writings? And what warrant do you have for saying that “my people” are attacking public education? Most of the authors I’m referring to, regarding freedom of speech in universities, I know only through their writings about universities; I don’t have a clue what they have said about public education in the lower schools. So how are their views on lower schools (which I don’t know) my views? And in any case, even I myself were a fundamentalist, which I’m not, most of the critics of university education I’ve read are anything but fundamentalists. They are often apparently quite secular scholars who are just fed up with all the political correctness and monolithic, unselfcritical certainties of current academics. You are presuming way too much about who and what I am championing. And if you are in doubt, you can always use the old-fashioned device of asking me.

I’m in favor of public education, just for the record.

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The Indian government also seems to be adopting such a bias in terms of appointing people to the powerful positions in universities such as vice Chancellors.
Of course, their bias is towards people who go along with their ideology.

So would you say there is nothing wrong in this approach accept for the ideology they hold to?

Can you see how others might object to such a position?

My remarks are not limited to Christian conservatives but apply to conservatives generally. In fact, not all Christian conservatives are as dedicated to radical freedom of speech as I am. It’s actually the philosophical more than the Christian side of me that is speaking here. If I’m defending anything here, it’s not America as a Christian society (though I have nothing against acknowledging America’s Christian historical roots), but America as a society of philosophers, so to speak. America is the only society known to me that, at least by implication, made philosophical freedom part of its very foundations. If America ever loses that, it loses what makes it unique among nations. Ironically, the people who are most in favor or restricting philosophical freedom in America today are the university professors and intellectuals. (In all past societies, those groups were directly or subtly pressing for more intellectual freedom, but in America, perverse as it has become, the intellectuals are those most eager to shut down on certain lines of thought, certain conclusions, etc.)

It doesn’t follow that it has to be taught in the ninth grade. Your limited American experience here betrays you. In the country to the north of America, Canada, a country with average educational standards probably higher than average American educational standards, in the most populous and technologically advanced province, Ontario, biology is taught in both 9th and 10th grade without a unit on evolution. In 9th grade they learn cell biology and genetics; in 10th grade, ecology. Both of these are compulsory for high school graduation. In 11th and 12 grade biology, they learn evolution – which they are much better prepared for because of the cell, genetics, and ecology learned in the earlier grades. In those upper grades biology is not compulsory. But many students take biology in the upper grades because they want to be scientists, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, etc. And surprise, surprise, students from Ontario arrive at university (including good American universities) just as well prepared as, if not better prepared than, their American counterparts to study university biology. Without any compulsory three-week unit on evolution in ninth-grade biology. And this does not lead to less acceptance of evolution in Canada; in fact, the anti-evolution lobby in Canada is very tiny, almost non-existent. Canada produces excellent biologists, and almost universal acceptance of evolution, without that little unit in the archaic (unchanged since Sputnik) ninth-grade biology course.

Things don’t have to continue to be taught in the order prescribed 60 years ago. And in fact if the evolution unit were moved up to a senior grade, since biology is not compulsory in senior grades, that would free the whole school system from these endless, useless social conflicts over evolution. If American science educators would act out of common sense (not to mention economic sense, since millions have been lost in legal battles, state curriculum changes back and forth, etc.) rather than out of sheer professional ego (prideful of the antique science education system created before the triplet codons were fully worked out, before personal computers, etc.), they could end the culture war over evolution in the schools tomorrow. Literally tomorrow. All it would take is one announcement: “Starting in September, the evolution unit from ninth-grade biology will be revamped in a more sophisticated form and moved into 11th grade [or 12th grade] biology.” Culture war over evolution in the schools – gone. Ancient history. Social peace at last regarding ninth-grade biology. No more calls to put “study the controversy” into the ninth-grade curriculum. No more Dover-like trials. No more lawsuits and threatened lawsuits. What a relief.

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Is the subject of evolution a compulsory part of the middle school curriculum in that jurisdiction, or was the teacher “winging it” and introducing a pet topic of his own?

It is my understanding that in most states evolution is only a compulsory part of the curriculum in ninth grade, biology after that being an optional subject, and evolution before that not being formally on the curriculum. Please let me know if the situation differs from that in various states.

For what it’s worth, I find the attitude of many fundamentalists odious, but if in the case you present the teacher was stepping outside of the curriculum, the fundamentalists would have a case in protesting the inclusion of the material. However, they should not have tried to drive the teacher out, if it was just a one-time occurrence and the teacher ceased in the behavior. There was no need for vindictiveness. On the other hand, if after the first protest his principal told him to desist, and he kept on teaching the stuff, then he brought the trouble on himself. If he wanted a captive audience for evolutionary theory, he should have moved up to teach Grade 9 biology, where his statements would have been both legal and on point for the curriculum.

Maybe true and maybe not. All you have established is that they are not friends of teaching evolution outside of the middle school curriculum. You have not established that they oppose the teaching of physics, chemistry, astronomy, etc. And certainly you know personally a number of conservative Christians with a great love of science and who know a great deal about it, including Paul Nelson, who, I believe, you have interacted with here. That number could be expanded greatly, as I’m sure you are aware.