# Pseudogene Discovery Pains Evolutionary Paradigm

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [May 9, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128 "2019-05-09T03:48:24Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/61 "2019-05-10T15:12:46Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> the magic word is LGT. evolution is false now?

The magic word is other animal species.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/62 "2019-05-10T15:14:14Z")

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> [@pnelson](#):
>
> Look in a mirror. You are the one who claims that DNA similarities and differences are the locus of explanatory significance.

Yes, and we can cite many, many correlations between genotype and phenotype. Just because we can’t link every phenotype to every genotype in no way falsifies the evidence we do have.

> [@pnelson](#):
>
> So color me underwhelmed about DNA comparisons.

We have tons of evidence linking phenotype to genotype. I have yet to see any evidence for a different mechanism.

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**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/63 "2019-05-10T15:14:45Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> The magic word is other animal species.

you said that evolution will not be able to expain a situation of a gene that exist in 2 far species but not in other species (or even a group of species). so this case show that its possible.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/64 "2019-05-10T15:15:58Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> you said that evolution will not be able to expain a situation of a gene that exist in 2 far species but not in other species (or even a group of species). so this case show that its possible.

You haven’t shown it is possible for non-bacterial genes.

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**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/65 "2019-05-10T15:17:19Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> You haven’t shown it is possible for non-bacterial genes.

irrelevant. i only need to show a mechanism and this is what i did.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/66 "2019-05-10T15:19:25Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> irrelevant.

Completely relevant. There are observed mechanisms that can transfer bacterial genes to eukaryotic genomes. There are no known mechanisms for transferring genes between distantly related animals at a meaningful rate. Eukaryotic genes produce the expected noisy nested hierarchy.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/67 "2019-05-10T15:19:52Z")

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> [@pnelson](#):
>
> Until evolutionary biology can connect these anatomical, physiological, and behavioral differences – no chimps are reading this right now – to their causative DNA differences in the chimp and human genomes, respectively, all the DNA comparisons in the world won’t really bear on the unsolved evolutionary puzzle.

Of course they do. Even if we don’t know what particular differences in sequence relate to what particular differences in morphology, we can know that all the differences are the sort of thing explainable by known mutational mechanisms, and we can know that humans and chimps are related by common descent. Both of those are elements of the puzzle, surely.

Or are you trying to deny that the morphological differences have a genetic basis?

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**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/68 "2019-05-10T15:21:42Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> There are no known mechanisms for transferring genes between distantly related animals at a meaningful rate

you said nothing about “meaningful rate”. you said that even a single gene can falsify common descent. right?

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**Author:** ![pnelson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/pnelson/32/876_2.png) [@pnelson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/pnelson)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/69 "2019-05-10T15:25:21Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Or are you trying to deny that the morphological differences have a genetic basis?

I’m saying that the main explanatory task of evolutionary theory is to elucidate the process of _transformation_, not similarity. Similarity just gives you more of the same thing.

Transformation via common ancestry as a phenomenon is woefully understudied, and hence, not understood.

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**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/70 "2019-05-10T15:33:25Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> What genetic evidence would convince you of a problem with the hypothesis that chimps and humans share a common ancestor solely from natural reproductive processes?

That Humans and chimps are more similar to each other than chimps and lemurs!

How about you?

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**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/71 "2019-05-10T15:35:05Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> about 1\3 of gorila genes contradict the primate phylogeny.

@scd,

Youll have to produce an article for me to think you didnt just make this up… waiting on you.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/72 "2019-05-10T15:36:04Z")

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> [@gbrooks9](#):
>
> That Humans and chimps are more similar to each other than chimps and lemurs!

Can you expand on this?

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**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/73 "2019-05-10T15:36:31Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> but we do find such cases in nature. and scientists solving it by convergent loss or convergent evolution or LGT.

Its the same processes used ny crime labs to find the peroetrator.

Are you suggesting we analyze crime scenes completely inaccurately?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/74 "2019-05-10T15:38:55Z")

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> [@pnelson](#):
>
> chimp from a human?
> 
> Not DNA, really. Not proteins – many proteins in you, and in a chimp, are amino-acid-by-amino-acid identical.

@pnelson,

# You said it yourself!!!

So how do you justify fighting against God Led Primate Evolution when you have all the evidence in front you?

Or are you finally confessing that even if an Angel of God said “God did it that way!”… you would insist that the angel sit down and read Genesis?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/75 "2019-05-10T15:39:15Z")

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> [@gbrooks9](#):
>
> Youll have to produce an article for me to think you didnt just make this up… waiting on you.

see here:

> **[Gorilla Genome Sheds Light On Human Evolution](https://www.npr.org/2012/03/09/148306985/gorilla-genome-sheds-light-on-human-evolution)**
>
> Reporting in Nature, researchers write they have deciphered the genetic code of the gorilla, the last of the great apes to have its genome sequenced. Study co-author Aylwyn Scally discusses what the data reveal about the evolution of humans and other...

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/76 "2019-05-10T15:41:47Z")

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> [@pnelson](#):
>
> A Nobel Prize awaits the biologist who answers that question.

@pnelson

Are you for real?

Either God does it every day for the last 1000 years through designing natural processes that distinguish chimps from humans … or you are the first Christian endorsing Sorcery ive ever met!

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![gbrooks9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/gbrooks9/32/7979_2.png) [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/77 "2019-05-10T15:43:10Z")

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> [@scd](#):
>
> the magic word is LGT. evolution is false now?

@scd,

How does this article make Evolution false… if all they do is discuss genetic exchanges?

If anything, it helps to explain Evolution!

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![scd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6f9a4e/32.png) [@scd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/scd)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/78 "2019-05-10T15:46:56Z")

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see the discussion above.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/79 "2019-05-10T15:49:17Z")

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> [@gbrooks9](#):
>
> That Humans and chimps are more similar to each other than chimps and lemurs!

I’m not clear on how that’s supposed to be a problem for common ancestry. Could you explain?

> [@gbrooks9](#):
>
> Youll have to produce an article for me to think you didnt just make this up

No, he’s right about that. For about 15% of the genome, gorillas are closer to humans than to chimps. For about another 15%, gorillas are closer to chimps than to humans. And for about 1%, gorillas are closer to orangutans. This is expected from incomplete lineage sorting.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pseudogene-discovery-pains-evolutionary-paradigm/6128/80 "2019-05-10T15:54:58Z")

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> [@pnelson](#):
>
> I’m saying that the main explanatory task of evolutionary theory is to elucidate the process of _transformation_ , not similarity.

Why not both? What you really seem to be saying is that the main problem is to explain how genetics determines morphology, including how different genetics determines different morphology. That’s not really evolutionary biology; it’s more developmental genetics. Of course phylogenetic comparisons can help with developmental genetics; that’s what evo-devo is all about. But the question of how these genetic differences can arise is already answered: again, by known mutational mechanisms.

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