# Racism and Methodological Naturalism

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Society\
**Created:** [May 4, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054 "2019-05-04T14:05:41Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 2:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/1 "2019-05-04T14:05:41Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/147):
>
> > That seems to be a rather broad generalization but I think it touches upon the question, ‘are there other ways of knowing besides MN?’
> 
> I can answer that: No, there are not.

Please tell us how to determine racism is wrong using MN.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/2 "2019-05-04T17:45:48Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/148):
>
> Please tell us how to determine racism is wrong using MN.

You discuss the effects it has on human beings while treating them as naturalistic entities.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/3 "2019-05-04T17:50:55Z")

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That does not tell us racism is wrong. At most it would tell us racism is ineffective, but I’m not even sure that is the case. Perhaps racism is very effective at some goals, such as excluding people we don’t like and favoring people we do like.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/4 "2019-05-04T18:07:42Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/159):
>
> That does not tell us racism is wrong. At most it would tell us racism is ineffective, but I’m not even sure that is the case. Perhaps racism is very effective at some goals, such as excluding people we don’t like and favoring people we do like.

So on what basis do you believe we can demonstrate racism is wrong, that is incompatible with MN? Assuming you believe it can be shown to be wrong?

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/5 "2019-05-04T18:09:35Z")

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Isn’t it the point that MN cannot _prove_ that racism is wrong, and that there is truth outside of MN?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/6 "2019-05-04T18:15:08Z")

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That would seem to be the claim. I do not believe it can be supported, but we’ll see.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/7 "2019-05-04T18:19:26Z")

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So you believe there is no truth outside of MN. Prove that racism is wrong.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/8 "2019-05-04T18:22:59Z")

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Let’s make it personal. What kind of car do you drive? As an M.D., I suspect that it is better than decent. Supposed someone keyed it, slashed its tires or stole it. Prove that that is wrong, using MN.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/9 "2019-05-04T18:23:40Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/148):
>
> Please tell us how to determine racism is wrong using MN.

A case can be made that through investigation by science through MN that there is only one race - the human race. So MN and the findings of science show that racism is purely a social construct.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/10 "2019-05-04T18:24:56Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/166):
>
> racism is purely a social construct.

That doesn’t make it wrong, only wrong in the eyes of some.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/11 "2019-05-04T18:25:59Z")

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What kind of car do _you_ drive? 🕶

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/12 "2019-05-04T18:26:13Z")

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I know, but it doesn’t make it right either. Humans decide what is right and what is wrong not Gods.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/13 "2019-05-04T18:26:51Z")

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A Black 2017 Ford Fusion SE

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/14 "2019-05-04T18:27:49Z")

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I do not need to do that. I have not claimed that everything can be demonstrated to be true thru MN, nor have I claimed that nothing IS true outside of MN.

I am claiming that there are no means by which we can demonstrate things to be true that require gong beyond the assumptions of MN. I probably wasn’t clear about that.

Anyway, if I demonstrate that racism is wrong thru MN, that does not demonstrate my claim is true. And if I am unable to do so, it does not demonstrate my position to be false. So it would just be a waste of time for me to answer your question.

What _would_ forward the discussion would be someone demonstrating racism to be wrong thru an argument we can all accept is sound, and using assumptions or propositions that could not be held under MN.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/15 "2019-05-04T18:28:10Z")

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So if someone thought it was okay to steal it, you shouldn’t have any problem with that.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/16 "2019-05-04T18:29:28Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/171):
>
> an argument we can all accept is sound, and using assumptions or propositions that could not be held under MN.

That would involve faith.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/17 "2019-05-04T18:31:00Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/173):
>
> That would involve faith.

So, IOW, there is no way to demonstrate things to be true other than thru MN.

Thanks for the discussion.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/18 "2019-05-04T18:31:43Z")

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Actually, there is. Faith can be justified.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/19 "2019-05-04T18:34:27Z")

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MN uses faith all the time.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/racism-and-methodological-naturalism/6054/20 "2019-05-04T18:34:38Z")

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> [@How to perform science without using "methodological naturalism."](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/how-to-perform-science-without-using-methodological-naturalism/5971/175):
>
> Actually, there is. Faith can be justified.

If it can be, this is only thru MN. Unless you’d care to give an example.

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